Will BBCE reputation be damaged over the 3.5 MM Pokemon case?

craig44

I was just reading an article about the case Logan Paul bought that was BBCE authenticated. I guess there are serious doubts in the Pokemon community regarding the authenticity of the case. a couple of questions:

1. will this negatively affect BBCE authenticated wrapped product?
2. Does Steve offer a guarantee on his wrapped authenticated boxes? will he be expected to come good for the 3.5 MM?
3. exactly what kind of work does BBCE do to authenticate boxes/cases? the article was fairly damning on the lack of research that went into authenticating this case.

SmithAuctionCo

Looking at it all objectively, the argument that it is fake is based on little to no documented information of what actual original cases look like. Sure, there are a few differences when you compare the BBCE wrapped case to the only other known case (there are probably more out there, just not publicly known), but that does not instantly mean that the case is fake. There easily could have been those variants among original cases - it just isn't documented anywhere for the public to view.

Keep in mind, only a small amount of people have examined the case in person. Have any of the ones arguing that it is fake examined it in person?

To answer your questions:

I don't think BBCE will take much of a hit if the case is proven to be bad. There is too much of a history with BBCE that shows integrity. If you deal in vintage wax, you'll still trust Steve over anyone else.

Not sure that BBCE offers a "Money Back Guarantee" in situations like this, and would all depend on what a contract would say for the BBCE opinion.

Steve / BBCE doesn't throw his opinion around lightly - he uses critical thinking and examines product diligently. How would the article know how Steve authenticated the case? They weren't there.

ndleo

This could be solved by opening the case. With the notoriety of this case, it wouldn’t hurt the value. They should do it on YouTube for the views. I would sure as hell watch

craig44

I just read elsewhere that BBCE will be opening the case. I sure hope they do it on a live stream. anything else will have serious questions attached.

I wonder what will happen if it turns out to be a fake? Will BBCE reimburse the purchase price as they "authenticated" it?

craig44

@SmithAuctionCo said:
Looking at it all objectively, the argument that it is fake is based on little to no documented information of what actual original cases look like. Sure, there are a few differences when you compare the BBCE wrapped case to the only other known case (there are probably more out there, just not publicly known), but that does not instantly mean that the case is fake. There easily could have been those variants among original cases - it just isn't documented anywhere for the public to view.

Keep in mind, only a small amount of people have examined the case in person. Have any of the ones arguing that it is fake examined it in person?

To answer your questions:

I don't think BBCE will take much of a hit if the case is proven to be bad. There is too much of a history with BBCE that shows integrity. If you deal in vintage wax, you'll still trust Steve over anyone else.

Not sure that BBCE offers a "Money Back Guarantee" in situations like this, and would all depend on what a contract would say for the BBCE opinion.

Steve / BBCE doesn't throw his opinion around lightly - he uses critical thinking and examines product diligently. How would the article know how Steve authenticated the case? They weren't there.

this is an excerpt from the article, speaking about BBCE and their case authentication process. if this is truly all that is done to authenticate "unopened" cases, it would make me feel wary of the process. but, as the article states, it is possible the process involves more steps. I would hope that with a case of this value, it would involve more than checking the tape.

"In a recent announcement to his website, he stated:

Factory sealed cases can be processed quickly as all I need to do is verify that they are still originally sealed. They can then go straight to wrapping/shipping. However, if the case is not still factory sealed, please hold off on submitting. In this case, every pack in every box needs to be looked over.

To serious collectors this is a wary statement. It implies their authentication process is nothing more than checking if a box is closed, which completely negates the point of authentication. For something as rare and valuable as a Base Set case, an authenticator should be using reference photos, checking over the labels, contacting experts, and interviewing past owners.

We don’t know for sure what Baseball Card Exchange did to authenticate Logan Paul’s box, so we can’t say with certainty they didn’t do their due diligence. However, their previous statements are incredibly concerning."

ndleo

@craig44 said:
I just read elsewhere that BBCE will be opening the case. I sure hope they do it on a live stream. anything else will have serious questions attached.

I wonder what will happen if it turns out to be a fake? Will BBCE reimburse the purchase price as they "authenticated" it?

If the case is fake, whatever the payout, it will most likely be determined by a court. Personally I don't think BBCE should pay anything more than returning the fee.

erikthredd

The "original" owner gave three different stories to how he acquired the case, that alone should be a HUGE red flag.
https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/logan-pauls-3-5-million-base-set-case-may-be-fake-pokemon-community-uncovers-significant-evidence

PaulMaul

I have the same concerns about BBCE as I do with PSA.

Both companies have positioned themselves as an authority on a very broad range of product, so broad as to make universal expertise nearly impossible.

Neither PSA nor Steve can ever hope to know as much about any given issue as hardcore collectors of that particular issue do. I believe both companies have tried to assemble a stable of advisors with expertise on specific sets that they deal with frequently, and I think that’s what they should do.

That said, PSA has been making the same errors for literally over ten years when describing wacky packages they grade and encapsulate. They have shown repeatedly that they don’t understand how to measure the centering of this issue correctly. These errors have been pointed out over and over again, but they keep happening, because at the end of the day, folks working at PSA and BBCE will never know as much about Wacky Packages as I do, nor can they be expected to. So they have to acknowledge that and come up with a way of addressing it and assuring customers that it won’t lead to mistakes.

craig44

@PaulMaul said:
I have the same concerns about BBCE as I do with PSA.

Both companies have positioned themselves as an authority on a very broad range of product, so broad as to make universal expertise nearly impossible.

Neither PSA nor Steve can ever hope to know as much about any given issue as hardcore collectors of that particular issue do. I believe both companies have tried to assemble a stable of advisors with expertise on specific sets that they deal with frequently, and I think that’s what they should do.

That said, PSA has been making the same errors for literally over ten years when describing wacky packages they grade and encapsulate. They have shown repeatedly that they don’t understand how to measure the centering of this issue correctly. These errors have been pointed out over and over again, but they keep happening, because at the end of the day, folks working at PSA and BBCE will never know as much about Wacky Packages as I do, nor can they be expected to. So they have to acknowledge that and come up with a way of addressing it and assuring customers that it won’t lead to mistakes.

I agree with what you are saying here. most serious collectors have knowledge about their "niche" that is a foot wide and a mile deep. no one can be an expert on everything, so most experts have knowledge that is a foot deep and a mile wide.

I have no reason at all to doubt Steve Harts integrity. I believe him to be as honest as the day is long. Everyone, however, can make mistakes. It appears, at least at the beginning of this saga, that the mistake was one of inexperience with the product.

it will all boil down to how BBCE rectifies this situation.

ndleo

Throws a curveball on the whole FASC or sealed case premium. At least a non-FASC box had each pack looked at.

Paranoia aside, this is one case of a high profile product. In the long run it won't matter. The most valuable card in our hobby has similar issues.

Justacommeman

If proven to be a bad case then yes it hurts his rep in the Pokémon Community and gives ammo to BBCE naysayers in the sportscard world. At the end of the day I think it all blows over in the sportscard community.

mark

balco758

No.

voxels123

I think this actually helps BBCE regardless.

The unopened market is extremely murky at best and it will further solidify the need for a BBCE.

Steve has an excellent business mind and whatever it happens he will do things smart for the business and also ethically.

beachbumcollecting

I don't think many Pokeman youtubers will use his service so that may hurt. from the sportscard guys, I don't think it hurts a single lick

GreenSneakers

I’ll take Steve Hart’s side over Logan Paul’s in this instance, or pretty much any other.

Justacommeman

@GreenSneakers said:
I’ll take Steve Hart’s side over Logan Paul’s in this instance, or pretty much any other.

It's not really Steve against Logan Paul in this case. If anything Paul and Steve are on the same side of this hoping this case is legit. It's those in the Pokémon community who are calling this case a fraud right from the first time it hit EBay until now. They have casted doubt on the case and Paul is the current owner. Everyone who has held chain of custody and flipped this case could be clawed back all the way back to the "original" owner if proven not legit.

m

ndleo

Release the Kraken! open that case! If it’s legit each box could be wrapped FASC and no harm no foul.

DBesse27

To answer the question at the beginning of the thread: NOPE!

grote15

Steve and BBCE are the gold standard for unopened authentication and their well deserved reputation, built over three decades of superlative service and unparalleled integrity in an often sketchy part of the hobby, is not going to be affected by the bar code sticker on some Pokemon case, at least not as far as sports card collectors are concerned. Just my 2 cents.

craig44

can anyone shed some light on how Steve goes about authenticating an unopened case? Is it truly as little as is discussed in the article? ie, checking to make sure they are sealed? if so, that seems mighty light for a case this valuable. I mean, this case, Pokemon or not, is worth twice what the 86 fleer basketball case was.

I am truly shocked, that if BBCE was not absolutely sure of their expertise on this case that they either didn't consult an outside expert or decline to authenticate the case.

It seems outside their wheelhouse.

Justacommeman

@ndleo said:
Release the Kraken! open that case! If it’s legit each box could be wrapped FASC and no harm no foul.

That's really the only logical solution now. The Scarlett Letter is on this case and value is rendered to pennies on the dollar.

m

erba

According to Twiiter, he's taking the case to BBCE in person this weekend.

craig44

this may get juicy!!!

if they do open it, it should be with total transparency. otherwise, i am sure there will be questions and doubts.

I wonder if they will be consulting with a Pokemon expert when reevaluating this case?

1951WheatiesPremium

Starting to sound like it is being done for hype and YouTube views, not that there’s a thing wrong with that at all.

If it’s no good, I’m sure the ultimate outcome will be (and I’m guessing it’s sorted out before they know which outcome it will be) and if it is good then the value most certainly goes up.

West22

@craig44 said:
can anyone shed some light on how Steve goes about authenticating an unopened case? Is it truly as little as is discussed in the article? ie, checking to make sure they are sealed? if so, that seems mighty light for a case this valuable.

To my knowledge it is actually a fairly straightforward process for standard Topps cases from 1980-1992.
These all came with a standard staple pattern on the flaps that was virtually impossible to get into without changing the integrity of the box. Likely the same with the Fleer tape.

Therefore once they determine the outside of the case to be consistent, upon opening, they only need to inspect each box not every single pack in order for it to be wrapped FASC. Of course for high end cases like 1986-87 basketball etc, they surely were more thorough due to the incredible value at stake.

The Pokémon case is highly unusual and probably why Steve did not authenticate boxes that came with factory shrinkwrap over the individual boxes (not case) for so many years. He only recently started doing it for certain post 1990 products such as ‘93 SP baseball - as far as I know. I’m not sure whether that involved removing the shrinkwrap and inspecting each individual pack or verifying the shrink wrap itself and putting a BBCE sticker on top of that.

Either way, as someone else already alluded to, Logan Paul is kind of a douche influencer who really is only in this for the money and the clout, not the hobby, so I don’t really care what happens to him. If you know anything about his history already you probably know he has no moral compass. I’m sure Steve will handle this in his usual honest and transparent way.

jeffcbay

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Starting to sound like it is being done for hype and YouTube views, not that there’s a thing wrong with that at all.

I think there's everything wrong with pumping up fake controversy for YouTube views, but I suppose that discussion would be best kept off this forum. I could care less about how the Paul brothers choose to make their living, as long as they keep it out of our hobby. It's hard enough to keep our hobby legit without these two idiots involved.

SammyC

Pretty sure Logan Paul enjoying all these hyped discussion of his case, he doesn't care that case is legit or not. Pretty sure he will open the case live or recorded to get more clicks.

craig44

@West22 said:

@craig44 said:
can anyone shed some light on how Steve goes about authenticating an unopened case? Is it truly as little as is discussed in the article? ie, checking to make sure they are sealed? if so, that seems mighty light for a case this valuable.

To my knowledge it is actually a fairly straightforward process for standard Topps cases from 1980-1992.
These all came with a standard staple pattern on the flaps that was virtually impossible to get into without changing the integrity of the box. Likely the same with the Fleer tape.

Therefore once they determine the outside of the case to be consistent, upon opening, they only need to inspect each box not every single pack in order for it to be wrapped FASC. Of course for high end cases like 1986-87 basketball etc, they surely were more thorough due to the incredible value at stake.

The Pokémon case is highly unusual and probably why Steve did not authenticate boxes that came with factory shrinkwrap over the individual boxes (not case) for so many years. He only recently started doing it for certain post 1990 products such as ‘93 SP baseball - as far as I know. I’m not sure whether that involved removing the shrinkwrap and inspecting each individual pack or verifying the shrink wrap itself and putting a BBCE sticker on top of that.

Either way, as someone else already alluded to, Logan Paul is kind of a douche influencer who really is only in this for the money and the clout, not the hobby, so I don’t really care what happens to him. If you know anything about his history already you probably know he has no moral compass. I’m sure Steve will handle this in his usual honest and transparent way.

thank you for the detailed response. just so i can get it correct, are you saying that Steve actually opens sealed cases to authenticate them?

also, I am wondering why he never picked up on the bar code not matching the product code, the lack of fading on the label, wrong tape etc.? It also seems that for a case of this value, some research into the provenance would be in order?

Nathaniel1960

I hope they open the first pack and find a 1988 Fleer Jordan.

West22

@craig44 said:

thank you for the detailed response. just so i can get it correct, are you saying that Steve actually opens sealed cases to authenticate them?

also, I am wondering why he never picked up on the bar code not matching the product code, the lack of fading on the label, wrong tape etc.? It also seems that for a case of this value, some research into the provenance would be in order?

In the vast majority of cases, Steve wraps the individual box FASC, not the case. So most of the time he has to open the case to get to the boxes. How much detail goes into it once they open it is unknown to me but for stuff in their wheelhouse like late ‘80s Fleer basketball it seems quite involved and they have a ton of experience.

I’m sure there have been times when he wraps an entire case but the only instance I can specifically remember is this ‘86 Fleer basketball case.

So this Pokémon thing was an unusual situation where it was
A. a non sport issue
B. factory shrink wrapped so you can’t see the inside boxes, and
C. Something not really in BBCE’s wheelhouse.

All that said we don’t really know the details of what went down during the authentication so I would hesitate to pass judgement at this point.

West22

I should also add that Craig44’s point about provenance is spot on. If BBCE wrapped cases (as opposed to individual boxes) are as rare as I think they are (someone please correct me if I’m wrong) then surely some research into provenance would have been in order. Possibly the reason why the 1986 Fleer basketball case was able to be wrapped as a whole unit and not individual boxes was because it came with near impeccable provenance - straight from the Fritsch vault.

Link -

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/unopened-1986-87-fleer-basketball-case-sells-for-nearly-1-8-million/

Now, Logan Paul’s case likely had bad provenance, but we don’t know what information had been available to Steve at the time of authentication. Regardless of what happened before, it seems the issue will be sorted out this weekend.

Now I’m curious though, does anybody have examples of other BBCE wrapped cases - as opposed to FASC boxes?

1951WheatiesPremium

It’s worth noting that the first few rounds of Pokémon issues were a bit of a cluster-you-know-what in terms of how things were issued, when and why. So the idea that an early issue came in a different box that was left over is certainly plausible.

A brief look back at Topps shows some similarities when they moved from NY to PA; some of one years product in the previous years wrappers, recycled boxes and packaging for various items etc.

I know nothing about the specifics as it relates to BBCE, Mr. Paul or the breakdown of Pokémon packaging here, I’m just just offering and applying some logic - a company’s early years are often full of miscues and missteps where things can look pretty amateur and from my limited look at the early years of manufacturing these cards there was seemingly some amount of amateurish decision making going on - like with any other new company.

DBesse27

@1951WheatiesPremium ”cluster pop tarts”

1951WheatiesPremium

@DBesse27 said:
@1951WheatiesPremium ”cluster pop tarts”

Yes.

Represented visually below:

tulsaboy

Steve wraps intact, entire cases all the time. And he doesn't open them before he wraps them. If he authenticates the exterior of the case to be factory sealed and intact, he wraps the case as a factory sealed case if that is what the owner wants done. Most people want individual boxes wrapped FASC, but there are those (like me) who like intact cases as well. He wraps entire cases regularly. Many of the cases sold at major auction houses have been wrapped by Steve.
kevin

80sOPC

BBCE will be fine, mistakes happen. There was a large group of star on top cello’s that beat them a few years back. Any business that authenticates will get beat.

That said the provenance on that case is brutal. That has to factor into any authentication this significant. And they probably shouldn’t dabble in a collectable they aren’t knowledgeable about, particularly one with this level of value.

West22

@tulsaboy said:
Steve wraps intact, entire cases all the time. And he doesn't open them before he wraps them. If he authenticates the exterior of the case to be factory sealed and intact, he wraps the case as a factory sealed case if that is what the owner wants done. Most people want individual boxes wrapped FASC, but there are those (like me) who like intact cases as well. He wraps entire cases regularly. Many of the cases sold at major auction houses have been wrapped by Steve.
kevin

Good to know. For some reason I never see them pop up for sale authenticated as a whole, unopened case.

It does make me wonder if they will eventually do away with that option in favor of just inspecting the individual boxes and marking them FASC. And some of the individual shrink wrapped boxes are tricky. The problem with Pokémon and many of the CCGs like Star Wars and MTG, is if you can forge the shrink wrap then getting the empty box and some loose cards/wrappers is fairly simple.

Tibor

I built several several thousand sets from vending each year 1983-89. I never had a vending case that was sealed by staples, always with glue.

West22

@Tibor said:
I built several several thousand sets from vending each year 1983-89. I never had a vending case that was sealed by staples, always with glue.

Good to know. Whether it is glue or staples, the cases are authenticated from the details of the case being consistent with others of its type.

Tibor

@West22 the only cases I saw during those years with staples were "black out "
football wax cases.

West22

@Tibor said:
@West22 the only cases I saw during those years with staples were "black out "
football wax cases.

I should've said, they are authenticated looking at the staple pattern on the bottom of the box, and integrity of the flaps on the top. The staples were on the bottoms of virtually all of the Topps cases Topps offerings from the 80's and early 90's, yes, even the vending cases.

Tibor

Not the vending and cello cases I encountered. I get your point though.

West22

@Tibor said:
Not the vending and cello cases I encountered. I get your point though.

I think we are talking about different products then.

vols1

It's marketing gimmick. Any publicity is good publicity in his business. People even pay a premium when PSA puts 'Logan Paul' break on the cert.

Jack131

@Nathaniel1960 said:
I hope they open the first pack and find a 1988 Fleer Jordan.

Reminds me of this thread - I think I'll rip a pack of 1988 Fleer Basketball.

Tibor

@West22 I stand corrected. During the years I was building sets, I don't remember looking at the
bottom of a vending case or cello case. Probably didn't notice. I just packed completed
sets back into the empty vending/ cello cartons. As I said, I stand corrected.

voxels123

Logan Paul is an amazing douche. Sheesh. I just looked him up and those are five minutes of my life I will never get back.

Stone193

Hiya Dave - first off - hope you're doing well?

On this case. I know nothing about this stuff - hoping Steve does?

Did note that Wizards of the Coast (guessing maker of the product) has been under the Hasbro umbrella since 1999.

So, why not send these scans to Hasbro for authentication. I would hope they have a file on this stuff to include, perhaps, a sample case that was held back?

Just an idea.

Take care buddy. 👍

MParker79

Pretty embarrassing oversight, but no authentication service is perfect. The barcode not matching to the code is irrefutable evidence that it’s a fake. It is hard to believe they didn’t look into it further considering the value…

coolstanley

Will BBCE reputation be damaged?

um, yep.

rtimmer

I have no horse in this race, but find it a very interesting situation I’ll be watching to see how it unfolds. I’m actually going to bet against the crowd and say that the case is authentic, but I also really have no TCG background to make an informed opinion.

I do know a lot about 1990s topps cases though, and they do have stapled bottoms and glue sealed tops. Here’s a couple pictures of a 1992 series 2 rack pack case (Shaq rc). I also know that BBCE routinely wraps cases by doing an inspection of the case to ensure it’s sealed and then wraps around it.