Guys, please help me who to ask at PSA about re-evaluating their price guide for a Mickey Mantle ...
IndianaJones
Posts: 346 ✭✭✭
Guys, please help me to know who to ask at PSA about re-evaluating their price guide for one of the cards they listed among their "TOP 250 SPORTSCARDS OF ALL TIME". In so doing, I shall stick my neck out and provide you with the same 2021 major auction result numbers gleaned from 3 separate auctions and ask you if you believe a PSA Price Guide re-evaluation is truly warranted.
The card in question is the 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle.
1) At the PSA 2.5 level, in a 12/2018 Memory Lane Auction, one went for $5,797. In 10/2021, Clean Sweep Auctions offered what was probably the same card, and it now went for $10,580.
2) At the PSA 2 / SGC 2 level, on 12/9/2018, SCP Auctions offered a PSA 2 GOOD example, and it went for $4,555. Recently, on 12/5/2021, Robert Edward Auctions offered a really nice SGC 2 Good beauty, and it went for $10,800.
3) Regarding the second-highest PSA-graded specimen, the PSA 7 NEAR MINT reached $30,979 in 10/2015. through Mile High Auctions. In June of 2021, Memory Lane Auctions offered the same card and it went for $68,125.
For several years, the PSA Price Guide has had the 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle pegged at $2,700 for PSA Good 2, $4,500 for Very Good 3, and $35,000 for Near Mint 7. Since PSA's price guide is guided by auction / sales results, it would certainly appear it is now time for a serious price guide re-evaluation across the board for this card. I know Joe Orlando used to maintain the guide; now that he is gone, I have no idea who does their guide, and how to approach them. Since the card is not a mundane Mantle, but rather one of PSA's select top 250 sports cards of all time, the matter is worthy of their attention. Last year, PSA gave new and major increases for a similar regional, the 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams, so I know the company still gives time to their Price Guide..... ---Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Comments
You can try emailing them, but I don't think PSA puts much effort into keeping the guide prices up to date anymore. Pricing literally changes daily / weekly in the current market. The "Price Guide" is only a guide as it is titled. Most only use it as a quick reference if needed to identify better cards in a set / issue.
Anyone actually looking up the current "market value" of the card will use the auction results on PSA's website or any of the other auction record databases.
Hey, SmithAuctionCo, thanks for your thoughts. I fully agree with you; PSA no longer puts much effort into making their Price Guide relevant. Of course, they still have their price guide with their name on it. As said, recently they made a serious price re-evaluation of the 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams, a card PSA has always been big on and touted. To be sure, anyone looking to do auction battle for a '53 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle will make good use of those auction results, and it appears collectors did just that in 2021.
I would imagine, in the end, if you're going to take the time and trouble to have a guide, even if it's just "a guide", put some serious effort into it, or junk it, 'cause from the comments of many collectors on this forum and when I spoke of the matter on Net54Baseball.com forum, they think the PSA Price Guide is junk and nobody uses it. They use that paid subscription price guide, which is a serious accumulator of auction prices achieved. Having said that, to their credit, PSA now has a growing data base of auction prices realized, which anyone for free may have access, and would no doubt make serious use of---as I did.
I know a Stahl-Meyer Franks Mick is not the most sought-after Mantle, but the fact the owner of the unique PSA 9 MINT values his piece well into the millions, I suppose it might strongly be worth PSA's time to give their guide some more integrity. Just my spared from the hot dog package worth ...
Cheers. --- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Why would you really care? Do you own a 1953 Stahl-Meyer Mantle?
Nobody uses the PSA "price guide", so why does it matter what it says.
Well Mr. Tim, if I didn't own a 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle, I'd be pretty messed up if I took the trouble to research my case, initiate the thread, and then respond to responders. But, then, as Rufus blatantly responded, "nobody uses the PSA 'price guide", so why does it matter what it says" (?) There's a plethora of over-looked, underappreciated, undervalued cards and coins, so why bother? Since I said the card is one of PSA's stated Top 250 Cards in the Sports Card Hobby, I should think that would muster more than blase words.
I will present one more reason. The most renown find in our hobby's history, the find in 1986 of a case of 1952 Topps High numbers and Semi-high numbers, produced, in time, the 9 PSA Mint and Gem Mint '52 Topps Mickey Mantles. Perhaps the best of the PSA 9s sold for more than $5 million dollars last year. The dealer behind that find, as you may recall, was the late Mr. Mint Alan Rosen. He was interviewed for the book, Never Cheaper By the Dozen, in 2003. Being seventeen years after the find, he might have some juicy things to reflect about the '52 Topps Mantle. I will quote the book from page 207:
"But the Mantle, to me the '52 Topps Mantle is shit compared to a '53 Stahl-Meyer."
---Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Brian, you’re missing the point. Nobody said that one shouldn’t care about “undervalued” collectibles. Instead, many are trying to explain that the source of said declared value is paramount. The SMR (PSA price guide) is considered completely irrelevant by 99% of hobbyists and has never accurately reflected real life sales data. It could say the Stahl Meyer is worth $5 or $5 million and nobody would care. It wouldn’t affect the real value by a penny. So why bang your head against that wall?
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
So you're mad because this card isn't worth what you think it's worth? It's definitely a rare card, but from an off the wall set. No one really needs that card, unlike the '52 Mantle, which many people probably need to complete their '52 Topps set. Rarity doesn't always work out to a higher price. Demand for a card is much more important. It is a beautiful card, though.
Just a casual observation, but a decent segment of collectors (I can't and won't try to put a number or percentage to this) really seem to be followers. It actually gets old seeing the same 5-10 names that everyone loves. Those players are some of the best ever, but there is so much more to the hobby than those guys. I mean no disrespect to any individual collector, especially if you feel you are one of these types.
if something isn't hot and exciting, it kind of gets lost to all but the select minority who have already discovered it and appreciate it. A few more people here and there will discover neat oddball things, but it is clearly a niche market for many of the coolest and extremely hard to find collectibles out there. More people it seems will chase 1/2 of a T206 Wagner card before buying many of these other gems that few seem to appreciate. That seems odd to me, but then again to each their own.
I have long gravitated towards the unique over the common. Food issues, redemptions, mail-Ins, SGAs, etc. I'd rather find something not originally sold in a pack myself.
Oversized food issues are never going to command the same prices as regular trading cards.
The T206 Wagner and the 311 Mantle both have stories that are so entrenched in the hobby and Americana, that they have taken on a legacy of their own.
There's no comparison between that, and an obscure food issue.
I'd rather have a 1972 Esso Rod Carew ....it's just personal taste ...
Forget the guide ..u know what you have !!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
The Mickey Mantle Master set might be the most competitive player set. While I will concede that there may not be a ton of people who want the card, those that do would likely pay well into the six figures for that card, in my estimation.
And that’s a beautiful 7 but if memory serves, Brian has the single top pop Mint 9 example of the card with that $68,000 PSA 7 being next.
@IndianaJones
I don’t think any price guide matters, that card will go for a massive sum as 62 total is very low pop and those cards simply put don’t ever show up.
Single top pop Mint won’t ever be beat…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
@IndianaJones
Brian,
Most people looking for pricing data these days tend to use this tool:
https://www.psacard.com/auctionprices/baseball-cards/1953-stahl-meyer-franks/mickey-mantle/summary/492800
Again, it’s just another tool to use but I don’t think the SMR guide or the APR tool even matters for your card - it will most assuredly help set a new standard.
I might consider consigning early to make it visible at the National via the auction house you’d choose - if you’re going that route - but you don’t need any advice from me.
Amazing card, for sure.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
@1951WheatiesPremium, Hey, my friend, thanks for your encouragement. I like you and appreciate your help. IF you have a disk drive on your computer, and would enjoy my E-book on a CD, Never Cheaper By the Dozen, I would like to send you a complimentary copy. IF you enjoy immediate post-war regional / food issues, you might get a kick out of it. Just send me an email with you mailing address. I'm at bfpowell2003@yahoo.com
@DanBessette, Thanks, Dan, for helping me see the point. Honest, I had no idea most of my fellow collectors consider the PSA Price Guide irrelevant. So, you're quite right----I was banging my head against the wall. It still seems funny someone at PSA recently took the trouble to hike the 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams values across the board. Then again, the MINT 9 DID sell for $109,000 back in the very early part of this millennium, whereas the MINT 9 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle last changed hands in Mr. Mint's second phone auction early in 1988, for a good sum of that time, but well under the Teddy Ballgame, and well before PSA began grading trading cards.
Many thanks to all of you who took the time and trouble to respond to my question.
Methinks at some time in the near future, I will get my son's help and load up a few images for you all to study and ponder ...
--- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Disagree. It’s still a reference.
@IndianaJones
Damn, Brian, what an amazing card! Wasn’t aware until Tim’s post that you owned it. Simply awesome!
I hope you took my previous post in the helpful vein in which it was intended. Just hate to see a great hobbyist waste his energy on something that’s not worth it.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
You seem jealous of the OP.
(and super annoying)
Brian, are you looking to sell? Or just wanting to set the record straight?
(and super annoying)
Right back at you, little boy. Don't like my comments? Too bad.
PSA recently purchased market ladder which in and of itself is a tacit concession they are not up on prices in any kind of effective manner..... even their past Auction Prices doesn't capture even close to all sales that really transpire.... Folks in the hobby full time DO NOT rely on any PSA data regarding prices before other options. And one could quadruple that sentiment for a far more obscure issue like a Mantle Stahl-Meyer. Nice card BTW!!!
Brian, I hear you with the PSA price guide… Mantle obscure stuff is awesome and highly sought after by a number of collectors. Like Tim said, the Mick Master is highly competitive.
Items like the base 52 Topps are the last purchases I would consider in completing my set since they are so readily available, but the low pop rare ones like the 53 Stahl-Meyer I try to pickup whenever I can. Most of my Mick items are low grade examples, but even the low grade stuff in rare issues is tough to find.
Your 9 example is the highest of a tough obscure issue that no price guide would have a clue how to value imo. Many of his pop 1, highest graded examples are such a rarity and never come to the market.
I looked back at what I paid for my low graded 53 Stahl and it was $1326 in 2019. I'm not sure why it isn't listed in VCP, but attached is what they show for pricing.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do with your example. The one I drool over that you have is the example I do not have - the epic 62 Jello box
My prized possession in my Mick pc is my 62 Grape-Nuts box.
My lowest of the low grade 53:
PSA and VCP pricing:
Your amazing box that I want/need/will never have!
My treasure
Sorry I'm so late getting back to answer. I've been exhausted with work. No, voxels123, I am not out to sell the card at this point, just merely setting the record straight. As you state, collectors will use the PSA price guide as a reference tool, especially to leverage a lower buying price, I would imagine. Since it's been a good five years since the Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantles have last been evaluated by the PSA Price Guide personnel, AND SINCE I OWN A PAIR, I FELT IT WAS HIGH TIME PSA RE-SET THEIR GUIDE VALUES. However, much has happened in the PSA hierarchy, so I did not have a clue who to contact.
Being their guide is taken as a nonentity by most who follow the hobby, as Dan B. maintains, I guess I will have to set the value myself. It wasn't as easy as perhaps I made it sound.
It took me years to research the Stahl-Meyer promotion from whence the card came, as well as the feelings and experiences of other collectors. To a man, they all spoke glowingly of them. As someone argued, they opined they were obscure. They're obscure like a rare 50s racing sports Ferrari is obscure. When I collected in the 70s and 80s, the veterans had all the Topps and Bowmans; what they were looking for post-war were the exotic regional / food issues and Topps test issues, the things you could not easily find and buy. These were the cards that challenged them in a powerful way. I'm not talking about Red Heart or Kellogg's 3D either.
Of course the hobby evolved in some definite, trying ways. One of the major trends stems from rookie card collecting, which exploded upon the scene. Dealers were only too happy to take notice and in turn explode their asking prices. Same for gum card set collecting. Up, up, and away. Collectors discretionary funds were sucked up right down to the last penny. There was nothing left for non-gum cards and coins.
Eventually, card grading came along, and PSA was front and center. As had been predicted by Mr. Mint, card values exploded again. And again. And again. And again.
Then, PSA unveiled their Set Registry. Collectors LOVE to compete, and one-up their fellow collector. Besides the basic Topps and Bowman sets, player registries caught on----BIG TIME. It took a while for attention to be again given to the regional / food issues, because while everybody slowly discovered they all had the gum cards they needed, it dawned on some of them that the brutally tough ones were the regional / food and Topps test issues.
Granted, for a lot of collectors, they split hairs again and again over some gum cards and how nicely centered they are, or how void of pesky print spots this is, or how nicely Topps got the picture in brilliant color and registered perfectly---for a change! Such matters consumed all their time and attention, AND HOBBY MONEY!!!!!! Believe me, I get that.
So, where does that leave the regional / food and test issues? To collectors that want something more, whether challenging or to one-up their fellow collectors, they begin to gravitate toward them in sometimes a down deep powerful way. Why? Well, for one thing, they often have an interesting background story. Many of them were not easy-weezie in the year they were issued. They were tough to get when the adult card hobby began to boom in the 70s and 80s. Nothing has changed today; THEY'RE STILL TOUGH, TOUGH, TOUGH. Some are ugly, true. Yet some are downright beautiful, as the Stahl-Meyer Mickey Mantle I've been discussing.
The unique 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle in PSA-graded MINT 9 condition is hardly obscure; instead, it's something of a legend. I was surprised as you perhaps when I interviewed Mr. Mint Alan Rosen over the phone in a taped interview and he says, "But the Mantle, to me the '52 Topps Mantle is shit compared to a '53 Stahl-Meyer." Here's the dealer who engineered the most famous find of '52 Topps high numbers, with Mickey Mantle being the crown jewel, and he says it's "shit" compared to a '53 Stahl-Meyer. It sure made me think hard and long. Being unqualified and one-of-one, and knowing where it came from, and how it entered the hobby, I determined it WAS a very special card. That's why I gave it the moniker, "The Maltese Falcon of Baseball Cards".
I put a lot of effort and research into my book, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN, concentrating on a nice variety of issues I either owned, once owned, or never owned, but still had a lot to tell my readers. Didn't sell many copies, but an E-book on a CD is going to be a tough sell, no matter what. I've had some really nice comments from customers. By the way, the display photo with the graded mint '53 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle was taken from my book. However, I'm derailing myself here, so will stop.
Again, thanks for giving me some of your time. Cheers and happy collecting. --- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Thought I'd take this opportunity to show mine off. Bought it 7-8 year ago. I notice that the PSA price guide has the 1953 Stahl Meyer in a 2 at $2,700, $7,500 for a 4, and $15,000 for a 5. I doubt you could buy any of these for those prices, even if you could find one for sale.
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
Brian,
Did either of my favorite sets make the book?
First, here’s the white whale of the group and the only complete PSA graded set ever assembled:
1951 Wheaties Premium Photos
And how about the rare, uniquely beautiful 1946-47 Propagandas Montiel set? Loaded with stars…
Two very underrated sets, in my opinion. 😉
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Wow that 46 set is incredible. Well done
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Current Progress (spaces are missing cards)
Closeups:
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I'll have to read up on the history of those.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Hey 1951 WheatiesPremium, No, none of your favorite sets made my book. I wrote about sets that I either knew a great deal about, or had gotten a great story and a lot of good information from an expert on a set I knew little about. From memory, my subjects included:
1962 JELL-O, 1960 Post Cereal, 1954 Stahl-Meyer Franks, 1953 Glendale Meats, 1962 Salada coins --baseball, 1959 Morrell Meats Sandy Koufax, 1964-7 Coca-Cola Football Caps, Baseball Caps, and Baseball Premiums, 1960 Home Run Derby, 1953 Briggs Franks Jackie Jensen - Walt Masterton panel, Bell Brand Dodgers / Rams, Dormand Postcards Gil Hodges, 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams, 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle, 1955 Rodeo Meats Kansas City A's, 1963 Post Cereal Maris & Mantle, 1971 Kellogg's 3-D baseball & football, 1954 Dan Dee Potato Chips, 1959 / 1961 Bazooka baseball, the memories & anecdotes of Buddy Hullett, the 1954-55 Esskay Franks Baltimore Orioles capitalist, and dreaming of cards that never were -- 1954 Wilson Franks Jackie Robinson & Mickey Mantle, which included some information on the 1947-1949 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson regional.
My book's aim was not to be an exhaustive treatment on these cards, coins, premiums, etc, It it was, I'd still be working on it 'til the day I died, and not be one-fourth complete.
No, I was striving to provide an introduction to the subject and concept of immediate post-war regional / food issues, and include a rich smorgasbord of subjects that were interesting, if not downright fascinating. I had a lot of good hobby people contribute their knowledge and enthralling stories.
judgebuck---- Many thanks for loading up an image of your beautiful 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mantle. That's a honey; I was so happy for you that you were able to get one---congratulations, bro! Ditto for your magnificent 1960 Post Cereal Mantle; your PSA 3 looks like an 8; it is truly gorgeous. I saw it recently on another PSA thread about Mickey Mantle. I never get tired at looking at either of those gems. Again, heartiest of congrats.
--- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Returning to the OP, we now have yet another example of a 1953 Stahl-Meyer Franks Mickey Mantle sale confirming the need for PSA to re-evaluate their 1953 Stahl-Meyer valuations. On January 27, Heritage Auctions concluded its offering of the 1953 Stahl-Meyer Mantle graded PSA 4.5 VG-EX. it's a 1 of 1 at that level, and actually the 5th highest graded of the 62 PSA has graded / authenticated. The PSA 4.5 hammered for $32,000, and with the buyer's premium, the final bill to the winner will be $38,400, plus incidentals.
To illustrate the Stahl-Meyer Mantle's value progression in recent years, on 10/13/2015 Mile High auctioned the 1 0f 1 PSA 7 example for $30,979, including the buyer's premium. Today, it required essentially the hammer bid of the VG-EX to match the 2015 Near Mint price with BP.
For those of you that thirst for this kind of provenance information, the '53 Mint, Near Mint and VG-EX gems trace to a small find of '53 Stahl-Meyers that entered the hobby in the late '70s. Collector / dealer Jack Urban bought them from a former Milprint worker, who produced these precious cards. He saved a small cache of them as souvenirs after the required number had been shipped to the Stahl-Meyer company in metropolitan New York City, and the leftovers were about to be trashed. As you may imagine, I'm sure glad that Milprint gentleman had the un-intentional foresight to squirrel away some of those cards, instead of just pitching them away and being done with that project, and on to the next ......
Well, onward and upward. Cheers. --- Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)