Can anyone explain this ? 1814 CBH
JRocco
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I have wondered about this effect. While I have seen similar effects on modern zincoln cents where the plating is stretched or damaged from the strike showing a tear or break in the surface above perimeter lettering, this is a silver coin. The punching on the top of some of the lettering left a deep "tear" or depression in the coin. These are fairly deep crevasses above some letters. Almost a hole on top of the A.
This is a single leaf 1814 CBH so we know it is a late die state but is this seen on other coins to this extent ?
Just curious what some of your thoughts are. Thanks in advance.
Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
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Super interesting..
Let's see if we can speculate and come up with a theory before those who really know answer the question 😄
So, the edges of the die are super eroded, to the point that there are no dentils and the silver is raised up as it was pressed over a now rather rounded edge.
The lettering, which is incuse into the dies has also eroded off of the edge of the super worn dies along with the heavy lapping the single leaf dies obviously went through...
So what ate these areas above the lettering where the impression of the letters is pressed into the coin? Pretty mysterious to me, but it has to be something to do the metal being struck into the lettering at the same time its being stretched down a no longer crisp die edge.
Not an answer.
I'm eager to see of anyone has an explanation 🤔
Sure is interesting. In order for there to be such a deep incuse area on the coin it would have to be a high raised area on the die. Take the A for example. The letter itself would be incuse on the die but just above the A on the die there would have to be raised “bump” of some sort to leave the incuse on the coin. Or above the T there would have to be a high raised area right above the incused area forming the top bar of the T.
The die must have looked strange but how and why did this happen ?
Hmm... the dies are at this point are super worn out and also ground down to remove clashing. I don't see any way there could be anything on that part if the die that would be raised up. Especially near the edge where the die metal is wearing away dramatically.
I think its some phenomenon of metal flow around the edge of the punched in area of the lettering.
Someone like Dan Carr would have some insight into how that might happen.
It's awfully sharp on a coin that is worn. Are we sure it is not post-mint tooling?
It is not post mint tooling. This effect is seen on other 1814 single leafs but not to this extent.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this ?
Have any CBH guys seen this before or have any insight ?
Idk. Is the bottom of the channel level with the surface of the coin?
Here's another theory. Is the bottom of the channel actually NOT below the coin surface. Are we looking at some kind of die break or damage running from the letter tops to the rim. That's more what it looks like in this coin
https://www.usacoinbook.com/coins/2499/half-dollars/capped-bust/1814-P/e-over-a-in-states/
http://maibockaddict.com/1814-o-103-r1-capped-bust-half-dollar
Until Lance is back from living a real life somewhere, couch potatoes like myself will just have to wait..😄
Misaligned dies perhaps. In comparison, the letters are very well formed at the top of the planchet.
I have a theory, but it involves dip residue, and I'm not sure it fully holds water. I'll wait until someone far more experienced chimes in.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I checked my library of 1814 O.105a's and found eight examples like this. All have very worn rims. (Forgive the small images below.)
I am hardly an expert when it comes to striking and metal flow. But perhaps struck metal expanded to aggressively fill worn outer edges and skipped over the upper edges of motto letters. Or not. LOL.
Lance.
Thanks for the opinions and insights guys. I too looked at as many examples as I could find online Lance and notices the similarities. So the only conclusion could be it was a die issue. When looking at the area with a high powered glass you can’t see the bottom of the depression because of the focal length of the glass and with a lower powered loop the crevasse was just a shadow. Looked cool just for the record. I know our old buddy slumlord had a chance to view and hold a few of the old original dies. Wonder if he saw this unique die ? Would love to see the die as it would explain a lot.
This is what I love about this series. But I have spent way too many hours looking at them with high powered glass
I have an E/A 1814 and a cheapo digital microscope. Here is what I saw next to some of the letters:
The ends of the little "troughs" are squared off but you can see die erosion lines ("flow lines") inside them. I wonder if this is some sort of a die work-hardening phenomenon where the die metal didn't wear down as quickly next to the letters ? Also makes me think of the "pull away toning" on Morgans and how that relates to the metal hardness. food for thought
Interesting. Thanks kaz for the example. It has to be a metal flow issue. Looking at the reverse in its entirety it appears that the peripheral lettering that actually touches and runs into the edge does not show this effect whereas letters that do not extend to the rim do. The exception is the R in AMERICA. It falls short of the rim yet does not have the crevasse. Shows the individuality of hand punched lettering.
I was thinking the same yesterday regarding pull away toning. The metal is stretched for lack of a better word on the outside of lettering in general and this produces a different surface on the metal which would explain the different toning effects.
Gosh I love this stuff !
a couple more shots, (bottom) letters from UNITED, (top/first image) CA from AMERICA, where the tops of the letters blend into the edge; suspect misaligned dies account for the latter.
@JRocco:
I also believe it is a metal flow/die erosion effect. Late die stages show more severe die erosion towards the edges caused by the metal to metal friction and subsequent abrasive wear from the planchet deforming radially to the edge of the die.
The incuse area behind some letters is not a raised area of the die, but an area of the die which has not eroded to the same extent as areas with no lettering or between letters. The filling of letters causes a break in the metal flow, so the die wear is not as deep just outward of some letters - causing the illusion of a raised area of the die when it is actually an area of less die wear.
The dies will also heat up over extending striking, accelerating the die abrasion.
Thanks Nysoto
Your insight is always appreciated. I have learned a lot from you through the years.
The "Nysoto Explaination" is kind of what was running through my mind as I tried to mentally grasp this thing..
Also, if I recall correctly, motto lettering was punched into each working die.
This would create some amount of work hardenning in the steel surrounding the punched in letters. I suspect this also had some effect here..
LDS early coinage is the dealio 👍
Appreciate all your input also jayPem.