David Hall Graded Coins in Blue Flips
cactusjack55
Posts: 17 ✭
I have a handful of old coins that were graded by David Hall and are still in the sealed, blue flips.
Questions:
- Are these worth selling as-is, or am I better off having them re-graded by PCGS?
- I believe these were graded in the 1980s. If so, was MS-65 the highest grade assigned back then?
- Is it possible the coin shown in the photos is a higher grade than MS-65 based on the current grading scale?
Any info or suggestions regarding this would be appreciated.
Thanks.
4
Comments
I have bought and sold several of these coins in the Hall flips. It never occurred to me to regrade them, but I did very well selling them 'as is'.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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I would leave them alone.
Welcome Jack. Leave them as is. History in your hand. Awesome. Selling, don’t be afraid to let some offers come in and do some research. They are collectible. Google David Hall. Interesting person as far as numismatics 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I worked for David for a few years, in the mid-80's, primarily as a buyer. Many of the coins in those flips later graded the same or higher at PCGS, while some graded lower. I would evaluate each coin on an individual basis, without making any assumptions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Wonderful thread. I've wondered about this topic too.
It seems like keeping them as is would be sage advice.
That GEM Morgan is a beauty! I love the luster on that one. Mesmerizing.
peacockcoins
Damn Good Pics for a newby!
Thanks everyone for the quick responses and info! Good stuff.
amwldcoin: Ha! Thanks for the compliment. Lots of trial and error photos with the camera...
I have a few of them and suspect that even if they grade higher, they are worth more in the flip.
They were made up until PCGS started business in 1986 or so. PCGS offered to grade the flips from customers into PCGS rattlers at no charge. I suspect that's why there are so many common coins seen in white rattlers these days (proof Franklins and common date Morgans, for example, commonly seen in the Hall flips).
That's Kool-Aid overly sentimental. No idea how to test the market, but the nicer the coins are, the more off you will be.
My wife, who worked for David Hall back then, most likely typed those flips on a typewriter (yes in the early 80's).
She says it does bring back some nice memories!
i KNOW that they are worth more in the old flip even if very undergraded!
DO NOT GET THEM REGRADED!!
I have always considered buying a David Hall flip. I don't actively look for them and I don't usually come across them. I don't know what the premium is on these. But I would probably keep them as is unless you have a rare date that might be worth more if graded in a higher holder.
Hall flips get a nice premium, leave them as is.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
What do you find to be the amount of premium over coin retail price for these flips?
I had the opportunity to see the op's coins in hand this afternoon, some very nice coins indeed.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It IS possible some are (slightly) overgraded.
This one comes to mind:
peacockcoins
At least one grade higher unless it is a valuable graded coin. The less expensive the coin the bigger the premium.
The earlier brown David Hall flips are even more scarce and valuable than the later blue flips.
@oreville What's a typical premium for something like an 81-S $1 DHRC MS65 that would grade 65 today?.
@cactusjack55 .... Welcome aboard. From what I have seen (other, earlier threads, and this one), I would advise keeping them 'as is'. Seems the nostalgia angle kicks in on these old David Hall coins. Cheers, RickO
An observation from the 70's and 80's and beyond:
David Hall founded PCGS with a core of great graders. He was not one of them. He knew a good deal about a lot of coins, but could never have survived as a wholesaler. He was a superb salesman. He sold flashiness, and who doesn't like that? but if you think that being in a DHRC flip indicates much more than a Hansen reject pedigree, you're a fan-boy. Enjoy your whimsy and your treasure hunt. If @oreville 's into it, it's the Holy Grail and a potential White Whale and the quest is all. The bug is the bug and there's no mask to protect you
But:
David was not enthusiastic about coins that simplistic customers couldn't understand. Frosty white blazers were his (and others) trademarks. KISS
Is there a market market in Accugrade coins out there? Why aren't those proto-slabs a collectible? @oreville likely has Chapman flips
And I have lots of Newman envelopes and, if you want them, and can likely locate some of the questionable Farouk inserts that showed up in maybe 1984-5.
Am i cynical? Often
But I can't tell you how many times it's cost me (by no means unique in this situation) money to make someone happy. It's not JUST the transaction. Show me a dealer who's lost his collector soul and I'll show you a guy in a suit with a Redbook, no more.
The flips look like the older softer PVC containing flips.
This one looks like a number of 67's I've owned over the years:
One of these days I will pony up for one of these for my Slab Type collection. Very cool indeed!
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The coins were typically in Cointains inside the flips.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Check the BST. There’s no better time than the present.
Tim
Thanks for the info.
Rick, at least with respect to when I was a buyer for David, I have a somewhat different take on things.
Howard Markham and I did quite a bit of the buying and we were both very particular. When buying raw coins - and back then, people stood in line to show them to us at our tables at shows - if we graded them "GEM", we paid strong/PQ prices compared to almost any other dealer. The raw David Hall "GEMS" that the company sold were were usually labeled "MS/PF65". But many of those coins were of the quality that would (and later did) grade above 65, once PCGS was operational. Bottom line - lots of coins in the David Hall flips were, indeed, conservatively graded.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have never seen one that was not graded MS-65. Can someone show one graded anything but, MS-65?
I'm sure many of the coins DHRC bought were gems, but I'm talking about hype for a dealer's inserts more than for the coins themselves. Just about everyone who bought for David know more than he about grading. The guy who general manager who put together the 1927 Yankees couldn't hit a major league curveball.
What's the market for Empire Coin, Bowers and Ruddy and/or Bowers and Merena inserts?
What's the market for David Akers inserts?.
I'm not talking merchandising ability. I'm not talking scholarship. I'm talking technical and historical genius.
If you don't recognize a hierarchy here, so be it.
If the collector who put together THE TYPE SET didn't know who Dave Akers was, or how his guidance of Brent Pogue for decades educated Brent and formed his taste, or why exactly was the Garrett '95 the ultimate and the other 20 coins right below it very worthwhile, spent two and a half million bucks because his advisors told him so, why should I care?
But call me a cranky old man with a mild yen to play with my money. Let me tell @MrEureka i want to trade him my two sealed DHRC 1944-D 10c MS65FB for his unsigned first edition Akers Gold Pattern book. Hopefully the sarcasm is oozing at a noticeable rate.
David Hall never merited a description of world-class grader. Ask any world-class grader you know
And absolutely no one wants my autograph. @HRH did a lot more good for this hobby than most anyone.
So what I really want to know is..... If a black NGC slab with an upgradeable 1883-O in MS63 is worth $7250, what's the market on an MS66 1881-S $1 in DHRC MS65?
Is it $200 premium for a blue and $400 for brown?
I paid $40 in the summer of 2021 for the brown DH flip in the picture above.
Edit to add - I just paid over $10K for a common date Morgan in an NGC black slab.
Figured the "investment quality coin" for two bucks or three?
Did they fire the guy who typed that flip description or promote him to head salesman?
Being fair-minded and curious, I'm wondering what Littleton was charging for a proof-60 at the time this was sold?
Selling roll coins as investments was a prominent racket merchandising and marketing tool of modern commercial numismatics.
Started soon after silver hit $1.30
Are you any relation to the cactusjack55 who used to be on ebay?
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
ajaan: No, not that I know of. That user ID was taken when I signed up on Ebay (I currently use cactusjack5511 on Ebay).
Ok thanks. I guess you're not from Lockport, NY then. Take care.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
Nope. I'm from Arizona, but thanks for asking!
I think some of you are missing the appeal of these early DH flips. It's not about DH being one of the greatest numismatists of all time, or about the coins being undergraded. It's about the flips being part of the PCGS origin story. And for those who enjoy collecting PCGS slab variants, they can have a logical and valued place in a collection.
That said, they don't do anything for me, but I don't even like slabs.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Missed the origin story because I knew him a decade before he, Van and BJ ever toted their first automatic weapon.
I think @oreville once showed me a 19th Century coin holder carved from dinosaur bone. Whatever floats his boat floats mine. I'm still looking for a COVID-free morning to buy him breakfast at a show.