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Roosevelt Dollar, HK-308.

keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 25, 2021 6:33PM in U.S. Coin Forum

As long as I have collected So-Called Dollars I have admired the design of HK-308 from the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition held in St. Louis. The designs used on both sides are really attractive and elegant, the obverse showing a very stern and powerful image of President Theodore Roosevelt, the reverse showing the Hall of Festivals and Central Cascades from the Exposition. The medal itself is struck in Silver as a Proof and is the size of a standard Silver Dollar at 38mm. Hibler-Kappen and the Second Edition catalogue list it as an R-7 with 11-20 known. Combined, PCGS/NGC show six graded and I have seen images of maybe 3-4 more.

Although I have always been interested in owning one of these medals I'm always stopped short due to the overall appearance of them which tends to be some degree of slate grey. The image posted below is typical of every medal I have seen except for one. I read somewhere that it was suspected the tone came from long term storage in small envelopes, perhaps how they were given out at the time of purchase. Judging from the medals I have seen there doesn't appear to have been any attempt at conservation on any of them.

I wondered if any members own an HK-308 and could post a picture and give a worded description of their medal?? Also, can anyone speculate on what caused the tone to develop on every medal?? Thanks in advance.

Al H.

straight on lighting.

high intensity lighting angled to show the surface finish.

Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the pictures Al, I had not seen that one before. Sorry I cannot add to the discussion. Cheers, RickO

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2021 11:05AM

    @keets said:
    Hibler-Kappen and the Second Edition catalogue list it as an R-7 with 11-20 known. Combined, PCGS/NGC show six graded and I have seen images of maybe 3-4 more.

    This is an interesting issue as I see a number of these available from time to time. I'm guessing the high prices on these can keep them in dealer inventories.

    Although I have always been interested in owning one of these medals I'm always stopped short due to the overall appearance of them which tends to be some degree of slate grey. The image posted below is typical of every medal I have seen except for one. I read somewhere that it was suspected the tone came from long term storage in small envelopes, perhaps how they were given out at the time of purchase. Judging from the medals I have seen there doesn't appear to have been any attempt at conservation on any of them.

    This is an interesting theory. I wonder who it's attributed to and if any photos of the distribution envelopes are available? It would be great to see!

    I wondered if any members own an HK-308 and could post a picture and give a worded description of their medal??

    I don't have one of these yet. It's on my list, but like you, I haven't found one that jumps out at me from the way it looks.

    Also, can anyone speculate on what caused the tone to develop on every medal?? Thanks in advance.

    I cannot, but I think this could be a good topic for a talk at the So-Called Dollar Fellowship Gathering, where I bet you'll get a lot of feedback.

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2021 7:24PM

    The fields on mine are a bit cloudy, but aside from that I'd call it basically white.

    Same example, different lighting:

    Still same example, similar lighting, different camera:

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    thanks for the image, Jonathan. there's a 65UC listed at Stack's which is the "white" medal I referenced, yours makes it two that don't look dark grey. can you offer an explanation for the tone/oxidation on them??

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Your thoughts seem reasonable. I don't know how these were distributed. I don't think I've seen one in an original case.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That looks like a great specimen @jonathanb, with great photos to boot!

    Congrats and thanks for posting it here :+1:

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    another discussion point is the origin of these medals. although auctioneers such as Stack's and Heritage often list concise historical information with their catalogue listing there is little I have found about HK-308. similarly, Hibler-Kappen 1st or 2nd edition has nothing. all I can find is from an old Heritage description which states "Dies by Lauer of Germany" and suspicion that the medals may have been struck by the German Exhibit at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

    with many Exposition/Fair medals struck at the US Mint Exhibit(s) I have long wondered what they did. were medals struck as ordered?? that doesn't seem to make sense. did the Mint try to "guess" how many would be sold, strike them and destroy the left-overs?? strike more if needed?? with some issues it is known that so many were struck, but a medal such as HK-308 being unknown causes me to only imagine what might have been done.

    if this medal was issued by the US Mint I suppose the thinking above may apply. if sold by the German Exhibit, I can only imagine they struck them before the Fair began over in Germany, maybe by Lauer or his typical issuer if he had one.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2021 2:09PM

    @keets said:
    another discussion point is the origin of these medals. although auctioneers such as Stack's and Heritage often list concise historical information with their catalogue listing there is little I have found about HK-308. similarly, Hibler-Kappen 1st or 2nd edition has nothing. all I can find is from an old Heritage description which states "Dies by Lauer of Germany" and suspicion that the medals may have been struck by the German Exhibit at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

    with many Exposition/Fair medals struck at the US Mint Exhibit(s) I have long wondered what they did. were medals struck as ordered?? that doesn't seem to make sense. did the Mint try to "guess" how many would be sold, strike them and destroy the left-overs?? strike more if needed?? with some issues it is known that so many were struck, but a medal such as HK-308 being unknown causes me to only imagine what might have been done.

    if this medal was issued by the US Mint I suppose the thinking above may apply. if sold by the German Exhibit, I can only imagine they struck them before the Fair began over in Germany, maybe by Lauer or his typical issuer if he had one.

    That's great info Al! I've been wondering who made these, and like you, I didn't find any information in Hibler & Kappen. That being said, "Lauer" is evident on the obverse which is where I'm guessing Heritage got it.

    Ludwig Christian Lauer (1817 - 1873) of Nuremberg was a big issuer of US merchant tokens and US-themed Spiel Marke, but he died in 1873 so this could be a successor. Before Ludwig, there's an Ernst Ludwig Sigmund Lauer (1783-1833). It appears that German-American merchants ordered their tokens from Ludwig Christian Lauer. It would be an exciting discovery if one of his successor's issuers was present at the expo!

    Here's a close up of @jonathanb's photo:

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These medals are edgemarked. Mine is marked 990. Some are also marked SILBER. The US Mint never (?) used edgemarks. I think it's unlikely that these are US Mint products.

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 875 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Roosevelt medals were both designed and struck by the Lauer firm in Nurnberg, Germany as the edge markings are typical of the silver signature that the firm used into the 1930's. The Lauer family firm traces back to at least the early 1600's with family members being both die sinkers and mint masters for the state at times. They did most (all?) of their work in shop going back to their earliest counters (the long line of family history in fascinating).

    My view is that the Roosevelt medal was struck in Germany and sold at the 1904 LPE much as the two official French medals for the expo were struck at the Paris Mint and sold at the fair. The French medals are often found in their original maroon circular boxes with a Paris Mint label on the top and sometimes a seller's label on the bottom. I have never seen any type of case or box of issue for the Roosevelt medal; the toning in question may well be from a tissue or paper wrap in which the buyers kept the medals as mementos for years after. My speculation - the HK-308 was sold at only one location at the expo while the French medals were sold at numerous venues (as indicated by the bottom labels) throughout the expo and the city which accounts for their abundance and the scarcity of the So-Called $. I think the purity of the Lauer silver also contributed to a quicker toning in the original packaging.

    I have have handled two bright pieces over the years - one from a Hudson Valley collection was pre-slabbing of exonumia while the second I submitted ATS for another dealer. It was a very flashy piece & I tried to recall the grade from the ATS Census but they don't have HK-308 listed for some reason?

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2021 10:43AM

    ATS Census but they don't have HK-308 listed for some reason??

    it's listed. at the top of page one, right hand corner, there's a button/switch. you'll need to go to the Proof listings to find the HK-308.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2021 10:51AM

    This other page indicates Ludwig Christoph Lauer lived from 1729-1924, so he could be the one behind this medal.

    https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/people/cp98806/lauer-ludwig-christoph

    The other information I found on Ludwig Christoph Lauer said 1817 - 1873 so there appears to be some incongruity here.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This other page indicates Ludwig Christoph Lauer lived from 1729-1924

    I'm going to assume that's a typo, you probably meant Methusalah.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2021 11:02AM

    @keets said:
    This other page indicates Ludwig Christoph Lauer lived from 1729-1924

    I'm going to assume that's a typo, you probably meant Methusalah.

    Haha, you're right! I was just looking at the end date.

    Perhaps the Science Museum Group means there was a company named "Ludwig Christoph Lauer" that was run by different people?

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 875 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:

    >

    with many Exposition/Fair medals struck at the US Mint Exhibit(s) I have long wondered what they did. were medals struck as ordered?? that doesn't seem to make sense. did the Mint try to "guess" how many would be sold, strike them and destroy the left-overs?? strike more if needed?? with some issues it is known that so many were struck, but a medal such as HK-308 being unknown causes me to only imagine what might have been done.

    The sales of U.S. Mint coins and medals was sold as a private concession at some (and probably all) of the early 20th Century expositions where the Mint had an on-site presence. Farran Zerbe had the concession at the 1915 Panama-Pacific Expo in San Francisco and Charles Muir had the concession at the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Expo in St. Louis (and, I believe) at the 1915 Panama-California Expo in San Diego as well). I believe the basic premise was that the Mint would strike the official medal at their exhibit but the concessionaire was responsible for sales and guaranteed the Mint an amount set and paid before the expo opened. The Mint may have supplied coinage sets as well although not struck on site.

    Somewhere around here I have copies of some correspondence between the Mint & Muir dealing with the concession price, general terms and most interesting, preliminary designs for the Louisiana Purchase Expo official medal (HK-299 - 304), a couple of which are somewhat humorous in conception. The papers are part of a project that I haven't completed as yet (it's far down on the list) so I've shown them to just a couple of interested parties. I'll see if I can find them and share some details.

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