Modern So-Called Dollars

Zoins

The So-Called Dollars cataloged by Richard D. Kenney, Harold E. Hibler & Charles V. Kappen, and now Jeff Shevlin & Bill Hyder, focus on So-Called Dollars from before 1962, the date of the H&K reference. Jeff has also indicted that his work will not be covering modern issues.

So this got me thinking, what are the great So-Called Dollars of the modern era?

One interesting thing is that World Expos and Fairs are no longer common in the US, but they are still common in other parts of the world. The last US-based World's Fair was in 1984 and filed for bankruptcy, but of note the Space Shuttle Enterprise was present!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_fair

Does anyone collect modern So-Called Dollars?

Post any that you have here!

Here's one of my favorites. This comes in gold, silver, and silver with gold plated highlights. I'm not sure if the gold ounce piece by itself qualifies based on size, but the silver ones certainly do and perhaps the gold would be included with the others?

This was struck by Nome Coins and made available during the months (years?) long celebration. It uses the official design of the Nome Gold Rush Centennial event (I even have a t-shirt!). Jimmy Carlisle @Kingisland99762, co-owner of Nome Coins, says his partner Jerald Brown indicated 10 gold 1-ounce medals and 25 gold half-ounce medals were minted. I've never seen a gold half-ounce medal but it's listed on the Nome Coins website of that era. Here's a quote from another thread:

@Kingisland99762 said:
Nome Coins was originally started by Jimmy Carlisle and Jerald Brown of Nome, Ak at the time. Amy Smithhisler was the Artist that won the Nome Centennial design, but since it was square drawing, which had a Train and Gold scale on it, Jimmy took a scan of the drawing and redesigned to fit in a coin shape. John Handling Mayor at the time loved our redesign and asked for an evenlope and stamp then did a poor man's copyright.

There are some Firstday Issue envelopes with the design and signed by the Artist.

I forgot to mention that Jearld designed the back of the coin.

The back side Die belongs to Jerald, the front side Die of the coin I (Jimmy) donated the Nome Museum.

I believe we only had 10 one-ounce and 25 half-ounce gold coins made. This information is from my Partner Jerald Brown. Co owner of Nome Coins.

See below comments for other information about Nome Coins.

Jimmy Carlisle

291fifth

So-called dollars are really a poorly defined collecting area. Perhaps a tighter definition of just what they are would inspire interest in pieces struck since 1962.

Zoins

@291fifth said:
So-called dollars are really a poorly defined collecting area. Perhaps a tighter definition of just what they are would inspire interest in pieces struck since 1962.

That's a good point. An issue is that even the already cataloged pieces defy definition and can cause consternation for collectors.

If anything could help a lot, I think it would be a catalog, like Kenney, H&K, or S&H.

coinsarefun

I guess this one would be considered in the Modern SCD period and although NGC and PCGS put a time period of the 1970's it turns out to really be from 1965 era. This particular piece has had a few write ups but never were all that accurate including Jankovsky. Only until I spoke to a seller that actually had first hand knowledge of these....
....which I posted here And, there are some terrible cheap imitations out there but usually easy to tell apart.
.

But I am thrilled that it is recognized by PCGS and NGC as C.1970S SC$50 JANKOVSKY-740 BRASS FACSIMILE COCA COLA BOTTLING 'SLUG'

keets

this is all well trod upon ground, the continuation of a catalogued listing of medals that is now some 60 years past. as such, it is to me a tricky topic to undertake. it made sense to me when the last edition was done and although the parties involved were collectors(who would probably benefit from a new book) it was an undertaking that involved lots and lots of people. also, it didn't attempts to "re-write" the original catalogue, just update it. to that end it wasn't an attempt to add anything new, just to update already existing issues with "Varieties" which had been overlooked.

the new effort by Shevlin and Hyder would add new issues and most probably seek to have a new numbering system. not meant as a criticism of those two men, but at heart they are promoters who seem intent on profiting from such an effort. I've told you before, JS has been saying he's working on a SC$ book project for probably 20 years now, but Tom Hoffman and Co. beat him to the punch. instead, he's worked on other ventures to "promote" other Exonumia. I certainly applaud research and authorship, but it rubs me the wrong way when the driving force tends to be money.

I know that probably sounds harsh and paints me as a bad guy, but years of circling the block have lead me to that conclusion. it's sort the old "Fool me once..................."

Zoins

@keets said:
this is all well trod upon ground, the continuation of a catalogued listing of medals that is now some 60 years past. as such, it is to me a tricky topic to undertake. it made sense to me when the last edition was done and although the parties involved were collectors(who would probably benefit from a new book) it was an undertaking that involved lots and lots of people. also, it didn't attempts to "re-write" the original catalogue, just update it. to that end it wasn't an attempt to add anything new, just to update already existing issues with "Varieties" which had been overlooked.

This was definitely a good and needed effort, but limited in scope as you say.

An area that I'm intensely interested in is die varieties but perhaps the Internet wasn't as mature back then. At the So-Called Dollar Fellowship Gathering this year, it was very easy to talk about die varieties with all the high resolution photos provided by PCGS and Stack's Bowers today.

the new effort by Shevlin and Hyder would add new issues and most probably seek to have a new numbering system. not meant as a criticism of those two men, but at heart they are promoters who seem intent on profiting from such an effort. I've told you before, JS has been saying he's working on a SC$ book project for probably 20 years now, but Tom Hoffman and Co. beat him to the punch. instead, he's worked on other ventures to "promote" other Exonumia. I certainly applaud research and authorship, but it rubs me the wrong way when the driving force tends to be money.

One thing I like about Jeff and Bill's effort is that while they focus on the same era of events, they add new issues and cover die varieties. They also have discussions with others who are contributors, but those people are not the primary authors.

A new number system is kind of needed. The way HK is done, even the existing new composition discoveries result in a very strange numbering system. It seems like it would be a lot better if compositions were moved to static definitions like Fuld uses for Civil War Tokens.

An issue with the H&K effort, is that my understanding is that there's no further effort for a 3rd edition of H&K, though I really appreciate the effort being put into keeping So-CalledDollars.com up to date with new discoveries.

I know that probably sounds harsh and paints me as a bad guy, but years of circling the block have lead me to that conclusion. it's sort the old "Fool me once..................."

Nah. I think you're fine. It's good to have and express opinions.

Nysoto

There are so many that I think regional efforts would give better results. I have been collecting WA state non-AYPE medals since 1980, but have not done much since 2010. Want to get back into it. Have documented in excel format what I have. My focus was on centennial medals of WA towns and cities 1925-2000, I have over 70 and some that I have only seen one or a few examples, Not sure which are "great" as they have been just fun medals to collect for the price of a latte. There are some pre-AYPE WA medals that I believe are historically important, although they don't all meet the H&K physical criteria.

keets

although they don't all meet the H&K physical criteria

this is always a sticking point between me and other collectors: they believe criteria should be looser to allow more inclusion, I believe the criteria for inclusion should be more strict and better adhered to.

Zoins

@keets said:
although they don't all meet the H&K physical criteria

this is always a sticking point between me and other collectors: they believe criteria should be looser to allow more inclusion, I believe the criteria for inclusion should be more strict and better adhered to.

I like consistency, which may not be as important for others.

For me, I prefer either:

1. if exceptions remain, allow other pieces in with the same qualifications
2. if exceptions are not to remain, delist pieces that don't qualify

I admit I'm not a fan of the existing, inconsistent state:

• some pieces are in because exceptions were made in 1962
• other pieces with the same qualifications are not in simply because they were not listed in 1962

This makes it hard the classify pieces because it's not based on definition, it's based on seemingly arbitrary, ossified selection.

I believe @keets agrees with me on delisting existing pieces, but I haven't seen any indication or appetite for that from the catalogers. I'm 100% okay with delisting pieces, but if the catalogs won't delist pieces, then I do believe other pieces with the same qualifications should be added in the interests of consistency. For what it's worth, the Civil War Tokens area often delists tokens which no longer qualify.

Here's an example I was just looking at:

The smaller 1883 German-American Bicentennial isn't included because it's 32mm, but the HK 2nd Edition explicitly lists the 32mm Alaska Yukon Pacific Exposition medals.

1883 German-American Bicentennial

Obverse of other piece was somewhat similar to this reverse but medal struck in pewter, 32mm, which latter precludes listing here.

1909 Alaska Yukon Pacific Exposition

Zoins

@Nysoto said:
There are so many that I think regional efforts would give better results. I have been collecting WA state non-AYPE medals since 1980, but have not done much since 2010. Want to get back into it. Have documented in excel format what I have. My focus was on centennial medals of WA towns and cities 1925-2000, I have over 70 and some that I have only seen one or a few examples, Not sure which are "great" as they have been just fun medals to collect for the price of a latte. There are some pre-AYPE WA medals that I believe are historically important, although they don't all meet the H&K physical criteria.

That's great @Nysoto! Are you thinking of publishing a reference?

One way to address the size issue for event medals would be to move to "So-Called Coins" as an umbrella term as I've seen people use the terms So-Called Half Dollars and So-Called Dimes for event pieces. PCGS and NGC even call the Coca-Cola piece from @coinsarefun above a "SC$50", or as I like to call it, a "So-Called Slug".

Also, I've noticed that some people just use the term "So-Calleds", dropping "Dollars" in discussion.

Zoins

@Nysoto A more specific, single event actually, reference that I admire a lot is Robert Lynn Hendershott's reference for the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair / LPE. it's very comprehensive and covers things other than numismatics. Something like that for Washington localities could be very interesting in my mind.

Wikipedia wrote:
In 1994, he wrote and published a catalog of 1904 World's Fair memorabilia titled "The 1904 St. Louis World's Fair - The Louisiana Purchase Exposition: Mementos and Memorabilia". The book consists of 365 pages and included 67 categories and further classified into 217 sub-categories. Over 2,600 items are listed, each with one or more photos, along with a biography of Robert Hendershott. The Forward and Publisher's Note is written by Kurt Krueger, publisher of a previous book of 1904 World's Fair Exonumia. The Overview is written by Eric Newman, a noted American numismatist.[6] It is cataloged as ASIN B0006F33YY.

• Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Hendershott
• Book: https://www.amazon.com/1904-St-Louis-Worlds-Fair/dp/B004J1KTJI

Zoins

Here's a potential modern SCD:

Official Medal of the American Bicentennial Committee of Palo Alto

Photo credits: MunicipalTokensAtEbay (keepwhatyoufind)

Namvet69

@Zoins I think you're right on with the So called Coins with subs by denomination sizes. Happy New Year. Peace Roy

Pioneer1

A good number of modern SCDs are cataloged in John Dean's "National Commemorative Medals of the US Mint" published in 2012 (http://www.jtdean.com/index.html), based on the the November 1985 Numismatist article by Mr. Howard Turner. While a number of the medals commemorate people and city/state centennials, a few related to important events and expositions in silver include:

• 1965 Statue of Liberty Centennial (Turner 13,14,15,20), four different medals each 33mm in Silver
• 1968 San Antonio Hemisfair International Exposition (Turner 21), a 33mm silver medal
• 1974 Spokane Washington World's Fair Exposition (Turner 38), a 38mm silver medal

Since many of the medals were designed and struck by the US Mint, there certainly should be appeal.

jesbroken

Here's a Montana Centennial Slug from 1964.
Jim

Pioneer1

1974 Spokane Washington World's Fair Exposition (Turner 38), a 38mm silver medal:

ZoidMeister

Seeing as the Lesher Referendum Dollars were included in H&K's original works, I would suggest the 1985 ANA issued Lesher House Restoration Dollars and the 1993 City of Victor Lesher Souvenir Dollars be included as well.

Does anyone have any information on who sponsored the 1993 City of Victor pieces and how many were ultimately minted?

Z
.

.

Nysoto

@Zoins:

That's great @Nysoto! Are you thinking of publishing a reference?

In some form I would like to publish a reference for WA State commemorative medals, it is quite a few years off as I have other current numismatic projects. I checked my spreadsheet and I have 71 centennial (or other anniversary) medals for WA state cities and towns, not including the various county and state medals. The Northwest Territorial Mint made a number of high quality silver medals SCD size for WA state events from about 1985-2000. I list six different Spokane World's Fair medals from 1974.

Nysoto

This is a link to the SCD guy listing for an 1890 Northwestern Industrial Exposition in Spokane. The medal is holed, which is typical for early WA state medals including Mayer Brothers medals which are usually holed or looped http://www.so-calleddollar.com/scd/northwestern-industrial-exposition-official-medal/

I had discussed this medal with Del Cushing, he was not aware of any earlier medal in WA state. There are some earlier trade tokens that are WA territory (WA became a state in 1889).

keets

Pioneer1

As a quick digression away from modern SCDs, here is an award medal for @Nysoto from the 1890 NW Industrial Expo:

It was made by S.D. Child's Co of Chicago (mark on obverse truncation). The "1890" lettering/numbering style is also seen on several other SCDs like the 1893 Hall-Fitzsimmons Boxing medal of the Crescent City Athletic Club also made by Childs Chicago.

Pioneer1

@Pioneer1 said:
A good number of modern SCDs are cataloged in John Dean's "National Commemorative Medals of the US Mint" published in 2012 (http://www.jtdean.com/index.html), based on the the November 1985 Numismatist article by Mr. Howard Turner. While a number of the medals commemorate people and city/state centennials, a few related to important events and expositions in silver include:

• 1965 Statue of Liberty Centennial (Turner 13,14,15,20), four different medals each 33mm in Silver
• 1968 San Antonio Hemisfair International Exposition (Turner 21), a 33mm silver medal
• 1974 Spokane Washington World's Fair Exposition (Turner 38), a 38mm silver medal

Since many of the medals were designed and struck by the US Mint, there certainly should be appeal.

I personally like some of the lesser known Modern SCD US Mint medals in the National Commemorative Medal Series... such as this 1970 American Fisheries Society Centennial (Turner 32):

Zoins

Very nice medals @Pioneer1!

1patwick

1890 Spokane Falls Industrial Expo. Unlisted SCD

1patwick

@Nysoto said:
There are so many that I think regional efforts would give better results. I have been collecting WA state non-AYPE medals since 1980, but have not done much since 2010. Want to get back into it. Have documented in excel format what I have. My focus was on centennial medals of WA towns and cities 1925-2000, I have over 70 and some that I have only seen one or a few examples, Not sure which are "great" as they have been just fun medals to collect for the price of a latte. There are some pre-AYPE WA medals that I believe are historically important, although they don't all meet the H&K physical criteria.

Nice to see another Washington St. So-Called Dollar collector!

TurtleCat

Would the various Franklin Mint medals commemorating various cities and events fit into this category? I’ve been collecting some from my hometown’s 25th anniversary in 1967 for years in original packaging. Very difficult to find.

Zoins

@1patwick said:

1890 Spokane Falls Industrial Expo. Unlisted SCD

Nice official medal for the 1890 Northwestern Industrial Exposition.

Like other in this threads, this was struck by Childs Chicago, founded by Schubal Davis Childs, and continued by his son S.D. Childs Jr.

This is now cataloged as SH 5-71 WM by Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder.

Here's the one from Jeff's website:

http://www.so-calleddollar.com/scd/northwestern-industrial-exposition-official-medal/

1patwick

Fort Vancouver WA has three "regional" so called dollars, obv., "Fort Vancouver' rev. "S.S. Beaver" in silver/bronze and a silver medal, obv, Fort Vancouver, rev. USSR Cross polar Flight ending in Vancouver WA. w/ flight # and date. I do not have a picture, sorry.

ScarsdaleCoin

@keets said:
this is all well trod upon ground, the continuation of a catalogued listing of medals that is now some 60 years past. as such, it is to me a tricky topic to undertake. it made sense to me when the last edition was done and although the parties involved were collectors(who would probably benefit from a new book) it was an undertaking that involved lots and lots of people. also, it didn't attempts to "re-write" the original catalogue, just update it. to that end it wasn't an attempt to add anything new, just to update already existing issues with "Varieties" which had been overlooked.

the new effort by Shevlin and Hyder would add new issues and most probably seek to have a new numbering system. not meant as a criticism of those two men, but at heart they are promoters who seem intent on profiting from such an effort. I've told you before, JS has been saying he's working on a SC$ book project for probably 20 years now, but Tom Hoffman and Co. beat him to the punch. instead, he's worked on other ventures to "promote" other Exonumia. I certainly applaud research and authorship, but it rubs me the wrong way when the driving force tends to be money.

I know that probably sounds harsh and paints me as a bad guy, but years of circling the block have lead me to that conclusion. it's sort the old "Fool me once..................."

I have seen updates in many areas.. for example we have in Hobo Nickels "Original" and Modern... the Moderns are generally considered made after Bo passed away... and while I personally like many moderns better than originals because they are 1 off pieces and works of true art and talent but there are many folks who wont touch them...

Another opposite example is MT's these are Magicians Tokens (tokens of magicians, magic shops, etc) the original guide published by TAMS is what I consider the holy bible created by a wonderful fellow F. William Kuethe, Jr. and was published in 1978 There are 363 pieces listed and while there many thousands of modern ones that were made from 1978 on... I truly believe that only the original 363 named in the Tams Journal are worth collecting... recently a fellow created an updated list to promote himself and his own modern collection.
It went against what other collectors believe but because it is written a lot of new collectors follow it and pay crazy money for what are basically common modern day tokens that were produced in very large quantities...

and that is why I feel with SCD only the original guide would be the ones to collect... the modern ones are just too common like the Big Mac Token which was popular but over 6 million produced... so while that would be one I would include as a modern SCD I wouldnt really think it would be worth collecting....

Zoins

@ScarsdaleCoin said:

@keets said:
this is all well trod upon ground, the continuation of a catalogued listing of medals that is now some 60 years past. as such, it is to me a tricky topic to undertake. it made sense to me when the last edition was done and although the parties involved were collectors(who would probably benefit from a new book) it was an undertaking that involved lots and lots of people. also, it didn't attempts to "re-write" the original catalogue, just update it. to that end it wasn't an attempt to add anything new, just to update already existing issues with "Varieties" which had been overlooked.

the new effort by Shevlin and Hyder would add new issues and most probably seek to have a new numbering system. not meant as a criticism of those two men, but at heart they are promoters who seem intent on profiting from such an effort. I've told you before, JS has been saying he's working on a SC$ book project for probably 20 years now, but Tom Hoffman and Co. beat him to the punch. instead, he's worked on other ventures to "promote" other Exonumia. I certainly applaud research and authorship, but it rubs me the wrong way when the driving force tends to be money.

I know that probably sounds harsh and paints me as a bad guy, but years of circling the block have lead me to that conclusion. it's sort the old "Fool me once..................."

I have seen updates in many areas.. for example we have in Hobo Nickels "Original" and Modern... the Moderns are generally considered made after Bo passed away... and while I personally like many moderns better than originals because they are 1 off pieces and works of true art and talent but there are many folks who wont touch them...

Another good thing about the moderns is that they can often more easily be traced to the carvers which I like as it fills in the story on the pieces.

Another opposite example is MT's these are Magicians Tokens (tokens of magicians, magic shops, etc) the original guide published by TAMS is what I consider the holy bible created by a wonderful fellow F. William Kuethe, Jr. and was published in 1978 There are 363 pieces listed and while there many thousands of modern ones that were made from 1978 on... I truly believe that only the original 363 named in the Tams Journal are worth collecting... recently a fellow created an updated list to promote himself and his own modern collection.
It went against what other collectors believe but because it is written a lot of new collectors follow it and pay crazy money for what are basically common modern day tokens that were produced in very large quantities...

You got me curious so I started to look these up.

Paul J. Courville runs MagicToken.org and has a nice list of references on his website.

http://www.magictoken.org/acton1.asp

He specifically calls out J.B. Findlay's guide, the Conjurers' Coins and Medals by J.B. Findlay. published in 1964:

http://www.magictoken.org/magic/FindlayCCM.html

There's also a publication by "The Collective" but I can't find the names of anyone in that group.

and that is why I feel with SCD only the original guide would be the ones to collect... the modern ones are just too common like the Big Mac Token which was popular but over 6 million produced... so while that would be one I would include as a modern SCD I wouldnt really think it would be worth collecting....

Worth collecting is up to the collector. It's worth saying not worth selling or stocking from a dealer perspective, but from a collector perspective, all kinds of itches need to be scratched. An excellent example is the super detailed guides collectors have put together for Chuck E. Cheese tokens.