Overton and R’s, 50 ct Capped Bust
Herb_T
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Is there an easier way to understand the Overton dies, like for example O-101 vs O-101a. Or the R.1 vs R.4
Is there a class or an easier way to understand the dies and R numbers? Is there someone that coaches these things?
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I normally check them , but I missed a big one. Woke up this am to see my 1820 Bust Half at 2k. I said to myself, i must have missed something, I think i had forgot to check this one, I was more concerned with the bust quarters the guy had at the show a few weeks ago, and never checked the half, come to find out its the overton 107 missing seriff's. Its a nice VF. At least I had in on auction so Ill do ok. I dont use BIN's thankfully.
Edited to add: i originally bought it just becuase it was a nice type coin.
No, no class, that I know of.
Learn the way that I did--
Use Overton & spend a lot of time with it.
Read the intro, then try to match it up.
As for Rarities, Overton has an explanation in the intro.
Note: R-8 is unique or nearly so.
R-7 is rare
Down to R-1= common
Also, if you attend the annual ANA, summer, The Bust Half Nut Club has an open meeting, and you may be able to meet some of the Bust Nuts there and ask your questions.
If Covid dies down this summer I may just go.
BHNC #203
Not sure what you're looking for here. Dies wear/erode, dies crack, dies are maintained (e.g., lapping to remove a problem like clashing). Sometimes maintenance is aggressive and elements of devices are removed, like a leaf.
All of these changes are shifts in die state. At some point a die state definition is made by experts and Overton numbering takes on an alphabetic suffix. O.101a, O.114b. (Experts have even defined finer states so you might even hear about an O.101.2. The Bust Half Nut Club intends to share these finer die state definitions in the near future.)
So there is a progression that can be tracked. A coin struck from new dies is a "prime". A die state may progress to "a" or "b". Or not. Overton's book cites many of these.
As for rarities, CBH's are assigned rarity levels from R1 to R8. R1 is most common. R8 is extremely rare (unique or perhaps only two or three known).
As for learning more, there are many books and articles, obviously. If you're a passionate collector of bust halves you might seek membership in the Bust Half Nut Club. Full membership cannot be attained without at least 100 die marriages for the lettered edge capped bust series. But it is possible to become an associate member with far fewer. You will need sponsorship from a regular member which requires an established a relationship for a period of time before applying (in order to measure your knowledge and "fever" for the series).
Lance.
When I see the O-xxx, how do I know if it pertains to the obverse or the reverse? Or does it pertain to a marriage of two dies? If a marriage, if the obverse changes, but the reverse stays the same, does it then get for instance a designation of O-xxx+1?
a) it pertains To both, the marriage of the obverse and reverse die.
b) it is It’s own Overton variety.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
If there is a remarriage (a die is used again with a different mate) a new Overton number is assigned.
BTW, I should have elaborated on the term "prime". It is generally not used for coins minted from new dies except when the great majority of surviving coins from that same die marriage are much later dies states. In other words, it is scarce and has greater value.
Lance.
So prime dies become older dies with cracks or other issue, how does anyone know these were the once prime and not another version of prime? I am assuming that there was more than one set of primes or is that not correct?
Think of "prime" as the coin's state, not the die. A coin in prime state was made from fresh dies. For whatever reason most of the extant coins of that die marriage show die wear or die damage.
Lance.
Herb, I'll try the last one.
Each Die Marriage (pairing of a specific Obverse and Reverse die) has a "Prime" state. That is the earliest known condition for that Die Marriage. Where no further die "states" exist (more and more die wear, cracks, damage. etc), it would only have one state. These "die states", and their corresponding "a", "b" designations (when recognized by Overton) are a chronological progression of the Die Marriage's lifespan.
For example, the 1834 O-103 (or 34-103 in short hand) has no known cracks or issues, and Overton recognizes no further state, so there is no "a" or "b". That marriage is the "Prime" for 1834 O-103.
On the other hand, the 09-109 has three states listed in Overton. The 09-109 (or Prime) has no cracks or segment issues whatsoever, with the the 109a having several continuing progressions of cracks and segment issues before finally the 109b is shown with all of the progressions of the 109a AND with large die chips developing at the arrowheads (the last known state of the Die Marriage lifespan).
As Lance mentioned, there are further studies being conducted into Die States, for which several marriages are know to have 5 or more noticeable points along the progression scale. This work is being spearheaded by the Bust Half Nut Club (BHNC), and are sometimes now annotated as something like 09-109.6 (which is the 6th step of the progression), and which is also the 09-109b per Overton.
Hopefully this helps make sense of Die Marriage and their states.
I will also second Lance's suggestion that you consider finding out more about the BHNC. For what it's worth, I became an Associate Member last spring, and the wealth of information and comradery with other serious Bust Half collectors that I have gained from membership has been absolutely worthwhile.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Your O- number will be your specific die marriage
Each year, each obverse die will get a number, and each reverse dies get a letter.
Obverse 6 married to reverse F gives you O-whatever.
Just about any obverse die could be paired with any reverse, that's why all the combinations.
Some dies got used in other years as well.
Some obverse dies used earlier got overdates stamped on them are were used again etc...
I have a number of 50ct capped bust coins, like 151 from 1807 to 1836 and 21 1837-1839. I recently have been adding the O numbers where I could find them for my purchases. About 2/3 had numbers, but the others didn’t. I have looked at the Overton book but trying to figure out how to apply the numbers are not necessarily straight forward. Maybe I should look at the coins I have with known numbers and see if I can figure out what they would be and then check my work. Thoughts?
This is one of my coins. This 1809 calls out O-112, but when I look at my book, the coin obverse is supposed to have the mouth broad and slightly open. But my coin doesn’t have that. So does that mean that this isn’t an O-112? Thoughts?
The prime dies are linked to the later die states by die features which are positional.
For the reverse, it is usually the position of the reverse legend,
known as the "T to I relationship" (second T in STATES relative to I in PLURIBUS).
On the obverse, it could be the date or star positions.
Here's an example page:
http://maibockaddict.com/1820-capped-bust-half-dollar-die-marriage-summary-and-id-page.shtml
I think that's confusing. Prime is simply the early die state. While it exists for every die marriage it is only significant (valuable) when it is a scarce condition. No one cites the prime state when it is commonplace.
Overton's diagnostics are often arcane and tedious. No one uses calipers to measure distance between date numerals or arrowheads, e.g. Attributing is more readily done by comparing motto lettering to those in the scroll (the T/I relationship, e.g.), the position of the 5 in 50C. relative to the talons above, the start and end point of the scroll relative to the motto letters, obverse stars and their proximity and location to features of Liberty's bust, etc.
Sometimes date numerals tilt (see the "9" in 1809), or are uneven in position...higher or lower. Stars can be oriented oddly or spacing off. These are simple diagnostics too. More difficult diagnostics Overton often cites (like long die lines extending in the shield bars or stripes) or open mouth or facial expression can be hard to detect, particularly with lower grade coins.
Lastly, die failures are the easiest of all. Compare cracks when you find them. But remember they may not show up with different die state.
I like to keep it simple. Don't get caught up in the weeds.
Lance.