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09SVDB Seller Ended The Listing!

MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
edited December 18, 2021 9:07PM in U.S. Coin Forum

The "S" mint mark seems a little lean in the middle??
The "N" in UNITED, is it a deep cut valley??
Opinions?

"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!

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Comments

  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    Also, I haven yet compared this point of interest against a genuine one, but that "R" in liberty, or the upper part just looks to large, maybe to open? Later on I'll compare it with some genuine images unless someone here can do that before I get back ;)

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The deep cut N would make this appear to be a problem coin. ;)

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The tilt and shape of the mintmark, the N in UNITED, and the center stroke of the B in the initials all look wrong to me.

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Have been seeing alot of these counterfeits/fakes with that exact Mintmark shape. Reminds me of a thin spaghetti noodle - definitely not the right MM. Plus of course the N is wrong and the B doesn't have the slanted crossbar as previously stated.

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are many counterfeits of the 09svdb by many makers over the years.
    Some markers for counterfeits may not be seen on all coins.
    PMD can also cause problems with authentication or make a genuine coin look counterfeit.
    Photos are a big factor also.

    A fair rule of thumb to start with is "One and you're done."
    Once you see one thing that is for sure wrong you need not go further. ;)

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2021 4:56PM

    Appears to be from Harsche die #4. I think the piece is a genuine 1909-S V.D.B.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    Seems were hovering around the mint mark this is the best I can do with a picture of that area.

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    Let me put the photos of the four different obverse die sets used for the 09SVDB here for those folks following the thread!

    Labeled Die set #1

    Labeled Die set #2

    Die set #3

    Die set #4

    Also I'll include this showing the information about the "N" in united.

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    LIBERTY font wrong

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2021 6:28PM

    I have one more image to post.
    I found a RAW owner graded XF (about the same wear cond.) 09SVDB and I did a screen grab of the obverse for a good example of the shallow valley "N" font used on a genuine mint strike 09SVDB.
    Notice the position of the period following the "V" in the designers initials.

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    LIBERTY font wrong

    Yea, the upper part of the "R" looks well, oversized!
    Good point!

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great seller! The seller ended the listing within 10 minutes of being notified. :)

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2021 9:26AM

    Seller should get his S V.D.B. authenticated, I think it's a genuine mint product. The fact that he took the auction down is NOT PROOF that the coin he was trying to sell is fake.

    Image of Harsche obverse die #6 (far low, far right) used for some 1909-S's AND some 1909-S V.D.B.'s is not seen in this thread.

    "Houston, we have a problem."

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    The really good sellers don't want anything that could leave a black mark on business.
    Good Job everyone!
    This went down and the seller was GLAD to pull it, > @mr1874 said:

    Seller should get his S V.D.B. authenticated, I think it's a genuine mint product. The fact that he took the auction down is NOT PROOF that the coin he was trying to sell is fake.

    Image of Harsche obverse die #6 (far low, far right) used for some 1909-S's AND some 1909-S V.D.B.'s is not seen in this thread.

    "Houston, we have a problem."

    Many of the sellers coins are graded, and I agree that if the seller feels the coin is worth near $2K then it would serve them well to get the coin "authenticated" all we have is pictures they have the actual coin IN HAND!
    But its my understanding that the seller didn't pull the listing because it was known fake, they pulled it for farther inspection. That means it may show right back up in a few days, if so then we'll know that they reexamined it and deemed it genuine.
    To my knowledge there wasn't ANY REPORTS made to ebay!!!!
    You stated information about Die #6
    To date the only information I've seen (thus far) about die numbers is four, and that's from places like NGC & others.
    Now, if you have a source of pics or other information of additional sets we the members here would love to have the images for comparisons, they would be a valuable asset in help spotting fake?

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seller pulled the listing means we don’t have to nuke it

    It’s entirely a fake

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    Seller pulled the listing means we don’t have to nuke it

    It’s entirely a fake

    The seller seemed to be glad to be informed of the red flags.

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2021 3:39PM

    The VDB appears totally wrong to me. No slant to the center line of the B and V dot wrong heighth. I believe there are twice as many fakes as real(very conservative) and very few on the forum should buy one raw without previewing coin here. Just my opinion. Also, notice how poor most fake photos are.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2021 4:36PM

    @jesbroken said:
    The VDB appears totally wrong to me. No slant to the center line of the B and V dot wrong height. I believe there are twice as many fakes as real(very conservative) and very few on the forum should buy one raw without previewing coin here. Just my opinion. Also, notice how poor most fake photos are.
    Jim

    I think your right about the number of fake/altered 09SVDB's. I've said if there was a way (there's not) to reel in all the fakes and counterfeits there would be tens of thousands of collection missing the 09SVDB that had one! and the for sale list on place like ebay wouldn't be more than one page. I mean collectors around the planet has been pulling this out of circulation for nearly 100 years! and yet they seem to be floating around as much as they were say 10 years after they were minted.
    In the background I've dealt one on one with a number of ebay sellers (not coin dealers) that were selling coins out of their dad's estate coin collection, their Uncle, a couple of Grand-Pa's, they was sure the coins couldn't be fake, he's had them for over 50 years!! Well its tough to break the ice with these people and it takes a lot of time, with ongoing message with pictures and web links, then comes the questions about the other coins they don't know what to do with. So, I know there is UNTOLD collections setting with a comfy Dad, Grand-Pa, knowing they have a genuine 09SVDB, but in reality is a cheap FAKE.
    Its truly sad.

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2021 6:07AM

    I'm not seeing this 'S' position and tilt in the four images posted earlier. This is my 1909-S V.D.B. PCGS F15. It is from Harsche die #6, 'S' far low, far right. I would post my ANACS graded 1909-S without V.D.B. that is from the same die but I don't have image available for that one.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    See why I say "Houston, we have a problem"?

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2021 8:22PM

    Obverse die #4 seen above is Harsche die #5 (low, far right). But Harsche does not indicate that 1909-S V.D.B. was produced from this die. Thing to do might be to get into PCGS photos. ALL of the dies used for both 1909-S without V.D.B. and 1909-S with V.D.B. should become readily apparent with a little detective work. Harsche is not perfect either. As I said in a previous post here, Harsche does not identify his die numbered as #6 (far low, far right) as being used to produce 1909-S V.D.B. The image I just posted of my 1909-S V.D.B. PROVES that Harsche die #6 (far low,far right) was used to make some 1909-S V.D.B.'s. Furthermore, the die chip in the upper loop of the 'S' can be seen clearly on my piece.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In summary, Harsche identifies three working dies for 1909-S V.D.B. obverse but there are really four. Harsche missed one. The one he missed in his discussion about 1909-S V.D.B. is represented here by my PCGS graded S V.D.B, 'S' far low, far right. Harshe #1-high left, "S' tilts to the right a great deal. Harsche #2-high right, 'S' tilts to the right a moderate amount. Harsche #3-low right, 'S' nearly vertical. The image being called from "Die set #1" here, was not used for 1909-S V.D.B., in my opinion, and in fact does not match any of the six known observe dies (according to Harsche) used for 1909-S cents, with or without V.D.B., no matter. It appears to me that it is a counterfeit. A way to find out for sure would be to check PCGS images to see if a match can be made of "Die set #1" with what is seen there. It's hard for me to believe Harsche missed twice.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mr1874 This image is small and won't enlarge well, any chance of a larger photo and a slab shot? ;)

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ( A way to find out for sure would be to check PCGS images )

    These are the 4 images and information straight from PCGS. 1,2,3,4 in order. They don't seem to mention a die 5 or 6.
    https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents




    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This image is small and won't enlarge well, any chance of a larger photo and a slab shot?

    I don't have the capability to make a larger photo. Sorry. By doing comparison of my supplied image of my PCGS graded S V.D.B with PCGS's four images (of presumably all 1909-S V.D.B's), it should be easy to tell that my coin's 'S' position does not match with "PCGS #4" ("way lower than both 9 digits" and "lowest mint mark from all four"). My S V.D.B. has the LOWEST 'S' (not just "way lower") and it has the FARTHEST right 'S' of all of them, with a definite tilt to the right. Note that on "PCGS #4" the 'S' is vertical (no tilt to the right). I may have to do the detective work mentioned earlier myself. I just don't have the time to do it now or anytime soon.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2021 7:49PM

    One more thing about my S V.D.B. before I leave this thread. My coin has what I call a "whispering V.D.B." I imagine myself finding this coin in the wild back in the day and after observing the obverse first with it's 1909 date with an 'S' below, turning the penny over to see the faint or "whispering" V.D.B. "Eureka!, I exclaim. I have found the holy grail of Lincoln cents!" I will have this coin until the day I die. Hopefully, that won't be any time real soon. :)

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mr1894 Thanks for your replies! :)

    I am still a little confused but that is nothing new. ;)
    I found an image of a 1909 S no VDB that the mint mark seems to match the position of yours.
    Can you confirm if it is the same?

    You said: "By doing comparison of my supplied image of my PCGS graded S V.D.B with PCGS's four images (of presumably all 1909-S V.D.B's), it should be easy to tell that my coin's 'S' position does not match"

    Are you saying there are more than the 4 obverse mint mark positions than shown above?
    Are you saying that the die/mint mark used for the 09 S was also used for the 09 SVDB? (photo below)
    Sorry for the stupid questions but sometimes my comprehension skills leave a little to be desired. ;):D

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2021 10:48PM

    That's the one. Far low, far right. I think there were four obverse dies only used for 1909-S VDB. "PCGS #1" is not seen in Harsche., with V.D.B. or without V.D.B., no matter. My 1909-S without V.D.B., as seen above, came from the same die as my PCGS graded 1909-S with V.D.B. It is ANACS graded.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To my understanding there are only the 4 mint mark placements.

    If you have a S VDB with that placement it would appear to be a problem.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My S V.D.B. has been deemed authentic by PCGS. My 1909-S without V.D.B. that has the same placement has been deemed authentic by ANACS. I think the PCGS information in the link is incomplete. There could be more than 4 mint mark placements for 1909-S V.D.B. but I doubt it at this time. PCGS #1 looks "off" to me. The 'S' on it is a mess. I doubt it's for 1909-S V.D.B. or even for 1909-S without V.D.B. Scratch that one off the list and add "far low, far right" and we're up to 4 again.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps my S V.D. is exceedingly rare, only a few made. The rarest of the rare.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe I will resubmit it and have "mr1874 specimen" put on the label.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mr1874 "Perhaps my S V.D. is exceedingly rare, only a few made. The rarest of the rare."

    Additional photos would help to figure out what is going on with your coin.
    You're right it would be "the rarest of the rare" because there is no way you can have a mint mark different than the 4 positions and also have a deep cut N (Type 2 reverse). You have a conflict on both sides of the coin and 2 things indicating it is not genuine. It would be very rare to have 1 of these things turn out to be a new discovery let alone 2 of them.

    Please post an update when you get your "mr1874 specimen" back.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Slab shots would be good

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's your images enlarged slightly.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2021 7:10PM

    "My coin has what I call a "whispering V.D.B."

    I have never heard of a whispering VDB any chance you could show us what that is?

    This would suggest your VDB is different than it should be so now we have 3 things that are not quite right. ;)

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,188 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2021 7:36PM

    The lighter VDB may be related to strike or state

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,188 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Never heard of a weak VDB until now.
    Thanks @MsMorrisine.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a good chance a "weak VDB" is due to a grease filled die or some other striking anomaly and would not be a variety. ;)

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "My coin has what I call a "whispering V.D.B."

    I have never heard of a whispering VDB any chance you could show us what that is?

    Not surprised you have never heard of a whispering VDB. It's a term I coined (no pun intended), especially for this great piece. I'm just trying to add a little excitement here. My 1909-S V.D.B. with it's whispering V.D.B. is indeed a very exciting coin to behold. The 'S' mm has the die chip in it's upper loop that can be seen with the naked eye even though the coin is only PCGS F 15. How does a counterfeiter accomplish that I ask? That 'S' was struck by the San Francisco mint onto my coin. It was NOT placed there by a counterfeiter. I will argue this until the day I die. Harsche apparently never saw 1909-S V.D.B. with 'S' far low and far right. The three obverse dies that Harsche identifies for 1909-S V.D.B. can be seen as PCGS #2 (Harsche Die No.1), PCGS #3 (Harshe Die No. 2) and PCGS #4 (Harsche Die No. 3). PCGS #1 (with it's mess of an 'S') was unknown by Harsche, with or without V.D.B., no matter. He did see 1909-S without V.D.B. with the FLFR (far low, far right) mm placement, however. In Harsche's numbering system FLFR 1909-S is Die No. 6.

    Whispering V.D.B.= faint V.D.B. Here's what Harsche has to say about faint V.D.B.'s:
    It is well known that some 1909-S V.D.B. pieces exist with faint V.D.B. initials (faintest at the bottom of the letters)...

    The dot between the 'D' and the 'B' is centered between those two letters on my coin as it should be.

    A genuine, genuine, genuine 1909 S-V.D.B. is my coin. <3

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mr1874 "The 'S' mm has the die chip..... How does a counterfeiter accomplish that I ask?"

    By taking a genuine 1909 S and adding a VDB would be one way. ;)

    Without better photos the only thing I can say is enjoy your coin. <3
    Please send your coin in so that errors with the description for the 4 known mint marks can be corrected. ;)

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a genuine 1909 S with an added VDB from a thread about 3 years ago.
    This one at least has the correct reverse die. Shallow N Type 1
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009196/1909-s-vdb-toooooooo-bad


  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2021 10:19PM

    @mr1874
    You have an outstanding opportunity to help educate the numismatic community, the members on this forum and generations of future collectors. No matter how it turns out it is a wonderful chance to learn. ;)

    If your coin has a mint mark position other than the 4 known mint mark locations it needs to be documented for future collectors and authentication experts. If it turned out to be true it would be very big news and may even make the cover of Coin World or other publications.

    If your coin has a deep cut N (Type 2) it would also be big news and would help with authentication in the future.

    If it turned out that there is a problem with the coin you may be able to get PCGS to guarantee it and you would lose nothing and be able to buy a genuine replacement coin with the money PCGS gives you.

    If it turns out there is a problem it would teach the numismatic community about a well done alteration or counterfeit.

    All of these things are a big win for you and the numismatic community. It's a win, win ;)

    If you put it back in your safe deposit box and do nothing everybody loses and no one learns a thing.
    If it turns out to be a problem coin your heirs will have the disappointments and troubles dealing with it.

    Thank you for your consideration. :)
    Bottom line.... it's your coin and you need to do what pleases you. <3

  • MarkW63MarkW63 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm a "Inquiring Mind" that needs to Knows!

    "I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
    Thomas Jefferson!

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2021 8:13AM

    Thank you ifthevamzarockin. I would want more than a guarantee of "money back if we certified a fake" from PCGS. If my S V.D.B. is a truly authentic San Francisco mint product, I would want a label on the new slab (Gold Shield) that says "Discovery Piece-Type 2 Reverse" AND I am to bear no cost (to include postage/insurance) to me for the resubmission. Would be good if someone from PCGS would chime in here since I haven't seen any acknowledgement from PCGS that your outstanding work is going to be recognized by them.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the reply. :)

    One step at a time, let's walk before we run. ;)

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