Non-pattern reverse "Cheerios" Dollar on eBay

CaptHenway

Bet you that some of the bidders think that that is what they would be getting.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154749152160?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l1120&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=2bd84919e0944f73a27c300d46c27d77&bu=43112640167&ut=RU&osub=-1~1&crd=20211215064945&segname=11021&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid

MsMorrisine

it's got the right coin number. unless they gave them both the same coin number

MsMorrisine

Looks like same coin number but with a FS variety instead of the TD variety

CaptHenway

Coin sold for $4,050.

Onedollarnohollar

what's the attraction to a non-patterned "cheerios dollar"? it looks like a common circulated coin. why the premium? why did PCGS designate it as something special? sorry, I'll wait to hear an "expert's" opinion.

keets

how can tell anything about the detail of the feathers with that picture?? looking at the below image of the slabbed coin, similar in size, you can't determine the same thing.

Treashunt

I agree, you can't tell in that picture.

Onedollarnohollar

PCGS didn't designate the coin as FS-401 on the holder which would indicate it's not the patterned coin, just a common reverse. It also has none of the obverse markings associated with the patterned reverse. Since CaptHenway is the most expert on this subject I will defer to him any pertinent opinions or comments. It is a shame that the seller wouldn't post better pics to take the guesswork out of it. The buyer probably will be disappointed in what he or she got for 4k+

Mr Lindy

$ 4,050 plus the fees for a most likely non pattern Cheerios is very sad. No returns on this scratched obverse common Saq $ liberated from a cereal package, now in a slab.

Not all Cheerios $ holders contain a rare die variety.

Buy the Coin, not the holder...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154749152160

BStrauss3

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar/411990

PCGS population report shows 135 all grades.

NGC calls them "Prototype Reverse" unless they are submitted in the Cheerios packaging, their pop is 43. I don't see a separate coin# for the prototype reverse, although I'm sure there is one.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/united-states/dollars/sacagawea-dollars-2000-date/20411/2000-p-cheerios-promotion-1-ms/

LanceNewmanOCC

i know some in this thread already know there is at least one secondary pup not related to the feathers that can ID the pattern rev cheerios coin. anyone care to post or take a guess what it/they may be ?

keets

PCGS didn't designate the coin as FS-401 on the holder which would indicate it's not the patterned coin, just a common reverse.

if this is true it is disingenuous of PCGS to call it a "Cheerios Dollar" irrespective of the fact that it came out of that box of cereal. all it does is lend confusion to the coin and I think they know that. certainly there must be some way for PCGS to acknowledge that the coin was in the cereal box but is not the variety, since it seems clear that collectors presumed it was.

it's easy enough to say "Caveat Emptor" and such, but when PCGS represents themselves as an authority and promotes the fact that the collecting community can trust them, clarity is important. in this case, it is clear that the term "Cheerios Dollar" means the Pattern Variety and not just a coin that was in a cereal box. if PCGS puts that term on the insert and it's something other than the Pattern they should probably note it as such. let's be honest, it wouldn't be the first time there was a label error, in this case the omission of "FS-401" if that what's needed to tell a collector what the coin is. maybe it would be simple enough to just put "Cheerios Dollar" non-pattern on the insert.

Mr Lindy

Here's a Pattern Reverse Cheerios Dollar in a PCGS holder that does not have FS-401 designation:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203758663124

Onedollarnohollar

Here's a Pattern Reverse Cheerios Dollar in a PCGS holder that does not have FS-401 designation:

interesting. if I had that coin I'd send it back in to have the designation put on the holder. it deserves to be more clearly identified.

LanceNewmanOCC

seems like we've had this discussion about the non fs attributed holders for cheerios dollars somewhat recently (again).
i don't recall the details tho.

here is the official information from the pcgs pops (image linked to the pop page)

so:
1. does pcgs put ONLY non-pattern rev dollars (but still cheerios promotional) in the 411990 non-fee holders?
2. has pcgs unintentionally put non-pattern dollars into the 411990 holders, really confusing some of us?
3. does pcgs put ONLY pattern rev cherrios dollars into 411990 holders and the official (fee-based) 147231 FS holders?
4. the pcgs ms68 pattern rev shows up on both of the above pcgs coin numbers
5. the other dollars on the CF page under 411990 (non-fee) are the pattern rev fwiw

edited to add links

LanceNewmanOCC

5mb image

Mr Lindy

411990
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185203076043

FS-902
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304185256927

Includes 147231 images
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar/images/411990

Onedollarnohollar

still waiting for CaptHenway to follow up with comments and observations related to his original post. hate to see a good post die on the vine so to speak.

fiftysevener

I'd rather see a response from PCGS. And an accurate grade assessment of 'Details Scratched"

CaptHenway

Patience. There is eggnog that has priority.

CaptHenway

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
seems like we've had this discussion about the non fs attributed holders for cheerios dollars somewhat recently (again).
i don't recall the details tho.

here is the official information from the pcgs pops (image linked to the pop page)

so:
1. does pcgs put ONLY non-pattern rev dollars (but still cheerios promotional) in the 411990 non-fee holders?
2. has pcgs unintentionally put non-pattern dollars into the 411990 holders, really confusing some of us?
3. does pcgs put ONLY pattern rev cherrios dollars into 411990 holders and the official (fee-based) 147231 FS holders?
4. the pcgs ms68 pattern rev shows up on both of the above pcgs coin numbers
5. the other dollars on the CF page under 411990 (non-fee) are the pattern rev fwiw

edited to add links

Can anybody give me the name and contact information for whoever it is at PCGS that determines what varieties get listed on labels, and how?

Thanks.

CaptHenway

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
5mb image

I wish I knew what was going on in that right obverse field, and why most of the tail feathers and part of the upper wing are either polished off of the die or, more likely, obscured on the photograph.

MsMorrisine

While not expecting a name, I’ll bet FW knows how labels are created

CaptHenway

Calling FRED WEINBERG!

MsMorrisine

When I first got here I assumed the labels were pulled out of a database. Likewise for the cert page.

When you see coin numbers not matching president’s name, the idea changes.

IkesT

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
seems like we've had this discussion about the non fs attributed holders for cheerios dollars somewhat recently (again).
i don't recall the details tho.

here is the official information from the pcgs pops (image linked to the pop page)

so:
1. does pcgs put ONLY non-pattern rev dollars (but still cheerios promotional) in the 411990 non-fee holders?
2. has pcgs unintentionally put non-pattern dollars into the 411990 holders, really confusing some of us?
3. does pcgs put ONLY pattern rev cherrios dollars into 411990 holders and the official (fee-based) 147231 FS holders?
4. the pcgs ms68 pattern rev shows up on both of the above pcgs coin numbers
5. the other dollars on the CF page under 411990 (non-fee) are the pattern rev fwiw

edited to add links

Here are the links to the 2 different Cheerios Dollar pages on Coinfacts:

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar/411990
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar-fs-902/147231

I suspect that the first Cheerios Dollar page was created before the variety was listed in the Cherrypicker's Guide. After it was listed, it appears they created a second page for the variety with FS number, rather than modifying the original page. I have seen the same type of duplicated listings for other varieties that were popular prior to listing in the CPG, such as the 1943-S 25c DDO (FS-101):

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1943-s-25c-doubled-die-obverse/5823
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1943-s-25c-ddo-fs-101-17/145154

If anyone can confirm that this is the case, it would be useful.

LJenkins11

This coin does not list fs on the slab.

IkesT

Trying this for a second time - the spam filter deleted my post on edit #1. Sometimes I find that if the post is sufficiently changed (like adding a few lines of text at the beginning), it will let it through (fingers crossed)...

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
so:
1. does pcgs put ONLY non-pattern rev dollars (but still cheerios promotional) in the 411990 non-fee holders?

The answer to this question is clearly no, as all coins imaged on Coinfacts for the 411990 designation are legitimate Cheerios Dollar ("pattern reverse") coins.

2. has pcgs unintentionally put non-pattern dollars into the 411990 holders, really confusing some of us?

That is the question. According to smalldollars.com, there was a 2005 report of "non-pattern reverse" dollar in Cheerios packaging (certified by PCI, at the time), but it was not taken seriously (it was apparently assumed to have been PCI's mistake) until a second example was confirmed in 2008. In other words, there was a window of time where such a mistake was more likely to have happened. That being said, TPGs are not perfect - mistakes can and do happen at any time - and I would not assume that if there are incorrectly attributed Cheerios Dollars, they would only be found in 411990 holders.

In any case, it clearly seems to be PCGS' intention to certify only the true Cheerios Dollar ("pattern reverse") coins, whether they are in 411990 or 147231 holders.

CaptHenway

Here's a simple mechanical error calling a Cheerios dollar an FS-901. Should be FS-902.
(From www.smalldollars.com)

Edited to add: As explained below by Mike Wallace, the 4th Edition of the CPG incorrectly listed this variety as FS-901. This means that PCGS did not commit a mechanical error on this label, they merely reported what the book was saying. However, the label is still wrong, and there may be others certified during the period after the 4th Edition came out and before the 5th Edition came out that incorrectly say FS-901.

TD

Namvet69

I think the Cheerios in quotes is the misdirection of the attribution. IMO. Peace Roy

MWallace

Here's an article on PCGS's website dated 5/16/08 stating that they are FS-401.

https://pcgs.com/news/pcgs-guidance-sacagawea-cheerios-dollars

MWallace

From Cherrypickers: Says it was incorrectly listed as 901 in 4th edition.

Zoins

@LJenkins11 said:
This coin does not list fs on the slab.

What does the slab show?

LJenkins11

MsMorrisine

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/41483225

Not only is it gold shield, it’s nfc

The coin number used is the one without the FS on the line entry

Where’s that dizzy avatar?

Zoins

@LJenkins11 said:
This coin does not list fs on the slab.

Given this, could the one in the OP be legit?

ctf_error_coins

https://youtu.be/arpidGq8SlA

LJenkins11

It would appear that the possibility exists. Looking at all fifteen trueviews for both PCGS#411990, https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar/images/411990, and the eleven trueviews for PCGS#147231, https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar-fs-902/images/147231, ALL coins displays the obverse die polish smear emanating off the shoulder just under the mintmark and ALL display the detailed tail feathers. As for the OP's Ebay listing, those photos are not ideal, and maybe my eyes are shot, but the shoulder smear "may" be present but the reverse images are inconclusive.

CaptHenway

@MWallace said:
From Cherrypickers: Says it was incorrectly listed as 901 in 4th edition.

Thank you for clearing that up.

CaptHenway

@IkesT said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
seems like we've had this discussion about the non fs attributed holders for cheerios dollars somewhat recently (again).
i don't recall the details tho.

here is the official information from the pcgs pops (image linked to the pop page)

so:
1. does pcgs put ONLY non-pattern rev dollars (but still cheerios promotional) in the 411990 non-fee holders?
2. has pcgs unintentionally put non-pattern dollars into the 411990 holders, really confusing some of us?
3. does pcgs put ONLY pattern rev cherrios dollars into 411990 holders and the official (fee-based) 147231 FS holders?
4. the pcgs ms68 pattern rev shows up on both of the above pcgs coin numbers
5. the other dollars on the CF page under 411990 (non-fee) are the pattern rev fwiw

edited to add links

Here are the links to the 2 different Cheerios Dollar pages on Coinfacts:

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar/411990
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-cheerios-dollar-fs-902/147231

I suspect that the first Cheerios Dollar page was created before the variety was listed in the Cherrypicker's Guide. After it was listed, it appears they created a second page for the variety with FS number, rather than modifying the original page. I have seen the same type of duplicated listings for other varieties that were popular prior to listing in the CPG, such as the 1943-S 25c DDO (FS-101):

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1943-s-25c-doubled-die-obverse/5823
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1943-s-25c-ddo-fs-101-17/145154

If anyone can confirm that this is the case, it would be useful.

Thanks for the two links. Looking at the pictures I just spotted a new die marker I had not noticed before!

Look at the star below the ER of AMERICA. From the point at 10 o'clock (with the coin upright) go a little more than halfway left to the wing. There is "something" there in most of the images. I will have to go get my coin out of the SDB to see what it is, but it repeats so it must be on the die.

TD

CaptHenway

@CaptHenway said:
Here's a simple mechanical error calling a Cheerios dollar an FS-901. Should be FS-902.
(From www.smalldollars.com)

Edited to add: As explained below by Mike Wallace, the 4th Edition of the CPG incorrectly listed this variety as FS-901. This means that PCGS did not commit a mechanical error on this label, they merely reported what the book was saying. However, the label is still wrong, and there may be others certified during the period after the 4th Edition came out and before the 5th Edition came out that incorrectly say FS-901.

TD

Somebody please check the pop reports for 2000-P FS-901 to see if there are more Cheerios dollars hiding in it.

MsMorrisine

die chip?

CaptHenway

@MsMorrisine said:
die chip?

Don't know. Don't have my coin here to check.

MsMorrisine

@CaptHenway said:

Somebody please check the pop reports for 2000-P FS-901 to see if there are more Cheerios dollars hiding in it.

can check the pop report numbers, but numbers hide images of each to show which are FS-901 or should be FS-902.

the best we have are the images from coinfacts

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2000-p-sac-1-wounded-eagle-fs-901/images/147883

CaptHenway

Those all look OK.

CaptHenway

And the > @LanceNewmanOCC said:

5mb image

And the coin that started this thread seems to have the die marker!

Mr Lindy

Anyone know the connection to FS-401 ?

Is it just a typo error for FS-901 ?

I have always liked this coin, but sadly I have never owned one.

@keets said:
how can tell anything about the detail of the feathers with that picture?? looking at the below image of the slabbed coin, similar in size, you can't determine the same thing.

MsMorrisine

@LindyS said:
Anyone know the connection to FS-401 ?

Is it just a typo error for FS-901 ?

See, this is where I think the label is keyed in versus pulled from a database.

I can only assume it is a typo for 901 or 902

LanceNewmanOCC

@MsMorrisine said:

@LindyS said:
Anyone know the connection to FS-401 ?

Is it just a typo error for FS-901 ?

See, this is where I think the label is keyed in versus pulled from a database.

I can only assume it is a typo for 901 or 902

it looks like the 901 was an error from CPG and the 401 on the holder is a error from pcgs.

looks like a typo/mechanical error holder since the cert page states 902.

CaptHenway

IIRC, the Cherry Pickers Guides were rdically renumbered between the 3rd and 4th editions> @LindyS said:

Anyone know the connection to FS-401 ?

Is it just a typo error for FS-901 ?

I have always liked this coin, but sadly I have never owned one.

@keets said:
how can tell anything about the detail of the feathers with that picture?? looking at the below image of the slabbed coin, similar in size, you can't determine the same thing.

According to the new numbering system introduced in 4th Edition, Volume II (may also have been in 4/I also but I cannot find mine to check) the variety numbering block 401-499 was reserved for "obverse variety, miscellaneous" just as numbering block 901-999 was reserved for "reverse variety, miscellaneous." The book then proceeded to accidentally label the 2000-P "speared eagle" reverse die as #901 and the 2000-P "enhanced reverse" die also as #901. This was corrected to #902 in the 5th Edition, Volume II.

I suspect that the "FS-401" label here is a typo for the incorrect "FS-901," which should of course be "FS-902." Perhaps (and I am just wild donkey guessing here) when the new variety was assigned a number by Fivaz and Stanton, but before the actual 4th Edition/ Volume II book came out, somebody at a TPG hand wrote "901" on a printed list of recognized varieties and left the top of the 9 open, and somebody else read it as a 4.

It would be a kind gesture by our gracious host, and any other TPG, if they would just treat any Cheerios dollar WITH THE PATTERN REVERSE but slabbed as either "FS-401" or "FS-901" as a mechanical error and relabel it as an "FS-902" in the same way that typographical mechanical errors are usually treated.

TD

keets

so, in the end this is a little more than a coin listed on eBay with a picture too small to determine the Variety and a comment based on insert information?? do I have that correct??

PCGS certainly needs feedback/input to get it right.