The greatest shooter of all time
doubledragon
Posts: 23,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Steph curry broke Ray Allen's record and is the king of the three point shot, he's the greatest shooter that ever lived.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ6bFGquQgY0
Comments
agreed!
Give me Larry Legend every day. can you imagine how many 3s he would have hit had he played today?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I _can _imagine! Less than Steph.
And the collectors/prices make my claim irrefutable.
Greatest shooter of all time?......That's an easy one. It was my uncle Bob. He was on Iwo Jima. 1945. He was 18 years old. In a bomb crater. When I was a little kid some drunk Marines told me the story on a Friday night.....it was scary.... Uncle Bob and two other guys were in the crater.....three Japanese soldiers showed up. The two other Marines guns jammed. They thought they were about to be FUBAR....Uncle Bob's gun didn't jam. He was the best shooter of all time. He taught me how to shoot. I miss him. Every day.
SEMPER FIDELIS
now that is a great story. thank you for sharing!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You're welcome.
I always like this story from 2013. This is twenty years after retirement as told by who was at the time probably the best player on the franchise and one of the better players in the league:
Larry Bird can still shoot the lights out.
In 2013, Indiana Pacers star Paul George was interviewed by SLAM Magazine and was asked about Larry Legend shooting in the gym during practice. Apparently, even though Bird has been out of the league for decades, he's still got it.
"He picked a ball up that had rolled over. He rolled up his sleeves and made about 15 in a row and just walked out like nothing just happened. It was the craziest thing I’ve seen."
When asked about his teammates' reaction to the impressive shooting display, George responded:
"We were speechless. We didn’t know whether to keep shooting or just to end practice. It was sweet, man."
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I think Steph Curry is looked at as the greatest shooter because he changed the game, he drops bombs from distances no one has the guts to even attempt to shoot from. I remember the end of the all star game, he was going run out the clock, but the crowd wanted him to drop a long bomb.
Bird
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Answered my own own question, I have been coming here for years and never noticed that you could make your profile private. When I clicked on @voxels123 profile it was private and I was at first thrown off. As they say, everyday, you learn something new
I'd personally give my vote to Curry but that isn't any knock on Bird. As for your last sentence,that is totally irrelevant to this argument when Bird had three rookie cards and Curry 100's when you factor in all of the parallels and autos. So of course pricing and the amount of people collecting these two players cards would lean toward Curry. I good amount of current collectors weren't even born yet when Bird played and have only seen his game by watching youtube clips.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
@voxels123 You have a private profile so I can only ask you here. I know little about you, other than the fact that you apparently have some Curry 10s. (Felicidades, by the way, I literally own no graded cards, but if I win the picks contest maybe I"ll choose one lol I'm watching you @doubledragon ) and that you apparently think Curry is the greatest shooter ever. Even when presented with the truth (that Bird is) you doubled-down by way of card prices. My question is.....can you please defend your opinion?
You'll never catch me in the picks contest, no one will, never!
I just went to Pro-Basketball-Reference's site to compare Bird and Curry's FG% by distance and unfortunately the NBA didn't start collating this data until 1996-97. Here's what Curry's looks like:
When debating these two shooters you really have to breakdown where the majority of their shots were coming from IMO.
Bird was deadly from anywhere between the basket out to the three point line while Curry is more from the foul line out to halfcourt.
You can see how Steph's FGA breakdown by distance above and where the majority of his shots were coming from. (odd though that they haven't started tracking distance on longer threes yet)
Not having the same shot/distance breakdown for Bird doesn't show you the whole picture but of his 19.3 FGA/G for his career just 1.9 attempts were from three. To have his FG percentages overall on so few three attempts meant that he was killing it from midrange to the basket.
Here's what the argument for greatest shooter comes down too...What qualifies someone as the greatest shooter? is it from long distance? are we factoring all shots not just threes?
If its long range then I'd give the nod to Curry but If its overall I'd probably go with Bird.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Here's links to their stats for anyone wanting to look:
Bird https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html
Curry https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
......
Like you said, Bird is the greatest overall shooter. He also came up in an era without 3s, not practicing them, then hardly taking them, yet could hit them like an assassin to win games or contests. That tells me all I need to know.
while i have no hard stats to back me up, my feeling is, having watched both, that had Bird been playing in current era NBA where there is such an emphasis on the 3, he would be better than steph. it was not emphasized nearly as much back when legend played, so it was not practiced as much.
there was never a bigger gym rat in the history of BB than Mr. Bird. I can absolutely see him taking 6-700 3's a day and being untouchable.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Not the greatest, but Glen Rice was one heck of a sharpshooter! I loved watching him playing with the Heat.
Here we go again. The stalkers are stalking my profile. How is that germane to the topic at hand?
Furthermore, to answer a few of the stalkers, the fact that Steph cards are worth tremendously more than Bird cards is absolutely topical and valid. If you are a better player, you have a greater following, and the values will follow. The fact that Steph has so many cards to choose from makes his greater values a greater asset to my argument, actually.
Also, I have heard anecdotally that Bird was a nasty, trashy, trash-talking player. Seems like he's over-playing his hand?
Anyways, Steph broke the 3-point record, Period.
wait, wait. are you actually saying that Steph Curry is a better PLAYER than Larry Bird? I am not saying shooter, but player???
haha hahahaha hahahahahahahahaah haha hahhaahhahahahahah
oh my gosh, I am out of breath here.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Oh my gosh!
wait, wait!
yes.
..........
I am not privy to your prior problems with perceived stalkers. And calling me a stalker is inaccurate and offensive. I can infer from your tone that there is no reason to continue any interaction with you.
this post from you was WEIRD. hence, my trepidation.
...........
Thank you for replying. I can agree that my post, especially if read by someone who doesn't know me very well, can be taken the wrong way. So to get off on a better foot, let me explain why I wrote what I wrote.
After reading your take on Bird over Curry, I wanted to ask you more about it. But I didn't recognize your username, so I clicked on your profile hoping to first possibly understand more about your rooting interests and opinions. Sometimes that can help make things easier. I have never, as far as I remember, come across a private profile. So I then did a quick look around, saw that was an option, and proceeded to write out the above referenced comment. I came to the sports forum via PCGS/coins. Never owned a graded card. This year we are doing a contest here picking NFL games. The guy running it mentioned that the prize might be a card of the winner's choice from e-bay up to a certain amount. Double Dragon is currently the contest leader. I also have a tendency, more and more probably, to write in a style that might be slightly out of the norm sometimes.
I hope you can re-read my original comment and understand it, now knowing all of this, and be able to tell me why you think Curry is a better shooter than Bird (for reasons others than card values, popularity, and possible recency bias).
@voxels123
Private profiles are not that common here; most people like the opportunity to connect with others via PM and click their name to see what else they collect.
So if you feel ‘attacked’ that could be part of the reason.
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So now Curry is a better overall player than Bird? Get real,already. I’d give you the shooter argument but better player? LOL, Curry plays point guard and he isn’t even a better passer than Bird. Those career assists per game averages don’t lie.
As for the popularity/pricing of a player’s cardboard it totally is not germane to the talking at hand. That is going off topic trying to garner extra points but really just means jacksh*t to who was the better shooter.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Speaking of shooters,how about these two shots in the final 5 seconds of the OKC-NO game that just ended. That Graham game winner was pretty incredible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W851X3Nw2A
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I’ve said this before: Steph Curry would have a hard time playing in a more physical era. I think he’s spectacular in this time.
Larry Bird is an all time great in any era. Few players have turned around a franchise as quickly as Bird did when he arrived his rookie year - 3 titles and 3 consecutive MVPs (84-86) is a pretty special feat in a decade where every finals featured either the Lakers or a Celtics - or both!
As for Curry’s three point prowess, he was born after it was established and grew up with a three point line. It wasn’t quite the weapon it is today even into the late 2000s though I think a strong argument could be made that many teams shoot too many of them in today’s game.
Steph Curry is a talented shooter but not the first or even second I would choose for ‘best shooter’.
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that was ridiculous
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Curry is a better shooter than Bird. I've played pickup with several NBA players over the years and the best shooter I ever played with was Dennis Scott. Heck, I used to play with Avery Johnson and he was a lights out shooter from mid-range just shooting around they gym, but was considered a poor shooter in the NBA.
My two favorite players growing up were Bird & Jordan, so this isn't any sort of knock on Bird. Until Curry came along he was the best shooter I remember watching.
As for the "stats" argument, I think Bird took more shorter shots and that led to his higher lifetime field goal percentage. He was only a 37.6% three point shooter in his career which is average, though he had a few really good years. His lifetime 2pt percentage is 50.9% versus 51.9% for Curry. The easiest comparison of all is the free throw. Same distance for both players, not contested, and Curry is a lifetime 90.7% free throw shooter while Bird is 88.6%. Curry is a better shooter at everything (2pt, 3pt & free throws) than Bird.
People simply remember Bird as a better shooter than he actually was. That is the nature of memory.
Robb
Bird was great. But this isn’t really all that close. Steph is light years ahead of everyone else. He’s legit that good.
Different game in the 80s, both in offensive mindset and defensive officiating. Curry wouldn't have been the same player. If the coaches even gave him the leeway and allowed him to do what he does now, Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, Dennis Rodman, Xavier McDaniel, and the defensive thugs of the day would have made sure Curry ended up in the second row more than once a game.
Curry would likely have been similar to Craig Ehlo or John Starks or B.J. Armstrong, or how about Steve Kerr (the all-time best career 3 point percentage, by the way, so maybe we should be talking about him instead?). I know the analytics guys don't believe in clutch, but Larry Bird was clutch AF. He would fearlessly take on those thugs, trash talk back to them, tell them what he was going to do, head fake like he was going to do something else, then step back and do exactly what he had told them he was going to do, and drain the shot...nothing but net...
Of course he would be the same player, he is an inch taller and 5-10 lbs heavier than Isiah Thomas who was a HOFer in that same era. Curry is a vastly superior shooter and ball handler than Thomas. The idea that he wouldn't be able to handle the physicality of the 80s/90s era is nonsense.
Now the statement about being permitted to take those shots is legit. I know I got benched more than once for some pretty dicey deep three attempts back in the day. Those attempts would probably be cheered on by the coach these days.
Kerr was a good shooter but he didn't create his own shots at all, nor have a significant volume of shots (2s or 3s). Curry is peerless as a shooter.
Robb
In my opinion this type of debate/argument can not be won solely on stats nor solely on the eye test. It's a combination of both.
I do not think that Isiah Thomas can be used to prove that Curry would be the same type of player in that era. Yes, Curry is bigger than Thomas. Maybe Curry could have been a HOF type player in that era too, but I don't think he would have been able to do it by playing the way he does in this era. Thomas was smaller than Curry, but played bigger. Hope that makes sense.
The idea that Curry can be seen as being way ahead of Bird is, in my opinion, nonsensical. As @countdougIas @countdouglas said ( which one is you buddy? j/k)
Bird was "clutch AF". He was more clutch , while being a better shooter, than anyone else. That closes the case for me.
I'm not posting this to prove anything. It's just for fun.
https://youtu.be/2r6CiVWIE1A
I was just thinking about ways to compare the eras and explain how the stats don't do justice to the argument. We all know that Bird didn't grow up with the 3 pointer. It was introduced I think when he was a sophomore in college. So he didn't practice it or use it as much. But when they started with the 3 point contests, of course he won the first couple, because he was the best. But in that era, there was no emphasis on taking the open 3 pointer. So Bird used the 3 when needed, like a dagger, at the end of games. If he found himself unguarded, which would be rare, he would go closer for an easier shot or try to to get contact for the foul or an and 1. It didn't make any sense to just turn around and go out to the three point line.
Bird, for the record, did take and make ridiculously long 3 pointers. But only when it really mattered. Meaning when the coach would say "Alright,Larry, make this half court shot and we don't practice today". Anecdotally this was not uncommon.
I recall Bird proclaiming everyone else was playing for second at a three point contest. He was correct.
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Ralph
its the same thing as comparing eras in baseball. difficult to do, but it can be done. curry surely wouldn't have been taking nearly as many 3s in the 80s and larry would be letting them fly in the teens.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think there is an incorrect misconception about the defense/physicality in Bird's era. The true physical defense did not start until the 1990's. Not saying it wasn't more physical in the 1970's/early 80's than it is now, because it was. The thug tactics were employed to stop Jordan in the 1990's, and those were used by only a few teams. It was not league wide.
The one NBA player who spent his entire career in the toughest defensive era was Kobe Bryant. Not just talking about physical defense, but effective defense. The NBA points per game was under 100 points per game for almost every one of Kobe's seasons.
The last four seasons of scoring in the NBA is 108, 112, 112, 111 points per game.. Rounding up or down with the .5 method.
From 1996 the averages were 97, 96, 92, 98, 95. That 92(which is really 91.6) points per game in 1998 is the the lowest point averaged in modern basketball history.
Starting in 1979 the league averages were 109, 108, 109, 109, 110, 111. Rounded up down with .5 method.
Only the last four years in the NBA has it really opened up. Curry played in seasons where the points per game in the league was less than 100 per game. Most of his seasons were in the low 100's.
In keeping with the theme of this blog and collector interest,
I submit Mickey Mantle.
Drained more shots than anyone in MLB🥃
That just isn't true, go back and look at Philly vs Boston,Boston vs LA,Boston vs Detroit. Even the Bulls vs Pistons playoff series were in the 87-88, 88-89 & 89-90 seasons. Hard fouls were the norm back then and when a scorer got hot the usual remedy to slow him down was physically slowing him down.
I'm not saying that Curry couldn't put up the same results back then but the game is completely night and day between now and then from a physicality standpoint. NBA refs literally stop games to review the occasional errant elbow even when that elbow really had no bearing on the play. The league let the game get so soft that they had to tell refs dial back the whistles going into this season which has honestly been pretty refreshing. No more watching three point shooters kicking out their leg for contact in order to get free free throws.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
It was limited to a few teams. It started with Detroit in the late 80's. It was not league wide. The 1980's Sacramento Kings weren't putting people on their butts. Then it became league wide by the mid 90's. Hence why you see how scoring was only 92 points per game compared to 110 in Birds early years.
Defense isn't just about being physical too, it is about being effective. Just look at how the league wide scoring changed.
When the league average team is scoring 110 points per game, more physical or not, that simply isn't as good of defense when the league was only scoring 94 points per team per game.
Those Lakers/Celtics finals in the 80's had some 135 to 125 point games. I don't remember the exact, but I do remember the high scores.
PS, like I said, these last four years the scoring has opened up. It hasn't been like that the last 12 years.
Your pretty much using the Pistons defense on Jordan as your only example and honestly if that is all you have then you really weren't watching the game closesly then. So many players back then played as physical as those Pistons teams just not aimed at one player like they were.
Just off the top of my head: Kevin Willis,Karl Malone,Jeff Ruland, Kevin McHale,Charles Oakley,Tree Rollins,Moses Malone,Buck Williams,Kurt Rambis,Rick Mahorn,Larry Smith,Olden Polynice,Cliff Levingston....even some of the more talented players who played hard Bird,Dr J,Magic,Barkley and plenty of others.
I think we're partlty on the same page here but in the 80's it was more widespread player wise where in the late 80's to 90's was mainly a team thing once teams saw how Detroit took Jordan off his game. From then on it was hard D against everyone but it never got to be on a Jordan Rules level unless you count in Hack-a-Shaq.
I miss those Lakers/Celtics days all the time (thank god for youtube
) High scoring games but their defense made you work for everything nothing came easy.
SIdenote: I mentioned Boston vs Philly playing a hard physical game in my previous and they're currently playing right now in Boston. Coming out of a timeout they played a BOS/PHI rivalry video montage on the scoreboard and ironically it was all physical plays/ fights between the two teams and most of the video was 1980's players.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
There are literal rule changes being ignored here. The NBA passed the flagrant foul rule in 1980 and boy started being enforced in 1990 (for Jordan) which opened the lane for smaller players. In addition, rule changes also legislated the game away from Shaquille toward guard play even more. Teams went for more shots (and eventually more threes) as the league changed to being completely guard oriented.
The NBA used rule changes every step of the way to make basketball a guard oriented sport.
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The philly teams of the early 80's were not the norm defensively. They were the best defensive team and physical. But defense was non existent for half the league in the early 1980's. The league was giving up 110-112 points per team in the first half of the 1980's and that 'defense'(if you want to call that defense) isn't really much different than what it is now.
It is the mid 90's where there is credence to what you are saying, because it was actually hard to score then AND it was league wide physical, and defenses were routinely only giving up 95 points a game. That is a major difference than the 112 points per game in the early 1980s. So in that regard, maybe the statement should be, 'Curry would get knocked on his arse in 1996 and wouldn't be able to do what he is doing now."
Also, minor rule changes always add on to that.
However, It is also true Curry would not have been allowed to take that many three's in 1980. No doubt about it. But it is also probably true that Ty Cobb would not be drafted today once they see how he grips his bat. So some things are just more era specific.
But that still does not diminish Curry's remarkable ability to hit three points at such a high rate with such a high amount of shots.
As for the question, people have pointed out that being a good shooter could mean more than just three point percentage, and Bird was amazing in all the other types of shots that Curry is not. So that is a good debate.
I'd completely forgotten about the weirdo that tried to steal my identity/persona awhile back, maybe a year ago. I took a hiatus from the forums for a few months, and apparently I was terribly missed, at least by a few, and the concerned parties started an Amber Alert/B.O.L.O./M.I.A thread.
I don't know what the purpose of it was, but the guy created a similar user name and posted in the thread as if he was me. I think he just replaced a capital i in place of my lower case L, which to the untrained eye, pretty much looks the same. I believe Larkin Collector sniffed it out. I can't remember if it was perhaps having a legitimate avatar or if it was his professed love of Mike Trout that ultimately gave away the ruse. I was unaware of all of that happening, until one day, I actually did make my triumphant return to the forum to resounding applause! (Ok, it was more like just a small hooray from @doubledragon and maaaaaybe one or 2 others.)
There were three of us waiting, actually, and it went almost exactly like this…
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......
A lot of us missed you, count.
I can't tell the difference, either. When I go to put in your name, if I don't spell it all the way out, both would pop up. But I guess I can use my alphabetical order skills and just take my chances next time. In all seriousness, it can cause confusion.