Why Was This Wreath Cent Downgraded?
Floridafacelifter
Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was previewing the FUN auction and found this in the description of this Wreath Cent:
“The grade of this piece was recently adjusted from its former PCGS assessment of MS68 Brown. The numerical grade is not important as it stands alone as the finest existing 1793 Sheldon-8 Wreath cent.”
Why would the owner agree to a downgrade? I don’t get it.
Also if anyone has the group photo of the collection of high grade large cents in PCGS slabs I would love to see that again- thank you!
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Comments
In the world of trophy coins ... who knows?
Is the line on the portrait or the plastic?
peacockcoins
@Floridafacelifter. I believe this is what you are looking for?
Yes indeed now I’ll save a copy
Thank you!
Maybe this is the coin I posted?
Yes, believe you are correct.
Must be a story there. Who would know?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
And can the new buyer lose the Simpson label and put it back in a 68 holder? Unlike the Heritage narrator, I believe the numerical grade is important and is directly related to what it will achieve at auction.
CAC sticker. Some will downgrade in hopes of obtaining a sticker. It does not appear to have come to fruition in this case. It also looks like it sadly shed the OGH.
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You could always resubmit as a regrade but it is far from guaranteed. And those bidding will forever treat it as a PCGS67 CAC reject, because coins like this cannot run from their provenance.
Lack of CAC sticker notwithstanding, it still looks like a very nice example. I’d hope that an advanced collector would appreciate it for what it is regardless of the plastic and stickers.
Agreed. As a pop one, the number or CAC is irrelevant to the price.
Makes sense- thanks for the comments! I’ve never deliberately downgraded a coin to get a CAC sticker- not my style.
I don't see a CAC.
Why isn’t there a True View for the coin? You’d think PCGS would have a far better image than this for the certification verification for a 6 figure coin.
It’s not even on CoinFacts
I’m guessing pcgsphoto wants a do over on this one
The coin does not look MS68 to me. Someone might have overgraded it a lot considering it was in an OGH, and there is no way a large cent will EVER be graded MS69, especially the first year.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
There already is. See pics above.
You shouldn’t have said “EVER”. Look beneath the circled coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There’s a 69 in the group photo, just below the OP coin. And the OP coin does not have a CAC, so if the downgrade was to get stickered it was a hard fail.
Good thing there’s no guarantee for copper!
There is, just not copper color.
Ah yes, you’re correct!
I wonder if PCGS had to issue a payout for this downgrade?
Such a beautiful coin.... While I would certainly want it slabbed, the grade is unimportant to me.... And the statement about none higher, is incorrect (also noted above) unless that was downgraded as well. Cheers, RickO
Finest S-8 known
idk when the downgrade occurred but between the crackout and the dark image, i'd say there is a chance that is a sniffer image.
Pop 1. Value didn't change.
photo would still want a do over
This should be at the top of CoinFacts
Maybe the next owner will reholder it and have new TrueViews taken- that would be my move
Interesting. That’s a good theory. It would be great to see the before and after to confirm.
Looking at the Heritage Auction listing, it appears the obverse scratch is in the plastic. I don't know about the scratch on the reverse! I handle all of my coins (slabbed or raw) with tender loving care. It is beyond me how collectors are so rough with the holders as if they just toss them in a shoebox from across the room. If I were the new owner, I would get it re-holdered, and lose the provenance, and the tacky label art, and ask to get the coin positioned properly with the date at six o'clock, as the eighteenth-century designer intended. It's a shame the OGH was lost.
Matt Snebold
Guessing this was taken when Jay Parrino/The Mint was cornering the market on rarities. I recall getting to see some of these in person at ‘94 ANA show. Very impressive.
Coins like this, and the 1796 in the other thread, will transcend all the holdering, re-holdering, changing labels, grades, CAC or no CAC, etc that is just lost on me.
This is very surprising given that the coin is in a Simpson holder.
I'm not blind. I meant there SHOULDN'T ever be a large cent graded MS69.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Are you saying it’s impossible that one could deserve that grade or that the grade shouldn’t be assigned, even if deserved?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm just saying I don't think it would exist because
A: The coin is large, so it wouldn't avoid contact, like some MS69 gold dollars do,
B: The coins that are being discussed are brown, and there is a limit to how much luster a brown coin can have.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Thank you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mmmhmm.,, 😈😂
A. Why couldn't the coin have been a presentation piece and, therefore, avoided contact.
B. A light chocolate brown coin can have considerable luster, especially if an early strike. (See A.)
C. The anthropic principle applied to coins: it exists therefore it is possible.
Maybe Heritage is hoping for a CAC bean?
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
CAC conspiracy theories
I am surprised that the cent in the OGH was cracked out and resubmitted or accepted a downgrade unless PCGS offered substantial compensation.
i remember looking at this cent in 1995 or 1994 at Jay Parrino’s table and decided not to buy them. Just was not interested in the very early Federal cents.
What ever happened to Jay? He went from one of the most well known dealers in the country owning several ultra rarities including the Farouk 1933 Saint to obscurity in a relatively short span of time.
I don’t know you can put it on the auction house.
Possibly downgraded after professional conservation?
As I recall one or two of those seven OGH large cents pictured developed spots as it was the talk on the whole brouse floor at a Philadelphia ANA show in 2008 or 2009.
Edited to add: I never saw it and spots might be a strong word. Yet that's what I heard which might have been gossip that snowballed. I could see them having developed verdigris growth which needed to be addressed which occurs often with slabbed 19th century copper.
Legal problems
He's still in coins as a collector as he has a top early everyman AU58 registry including a 1794 $1.
gossip? on the bourse floor? UNHEARD OF!
I did hear there was once a show where everything said on the floor was factual. I think it was a 10 table show in a VFW hall in the midwest in the 70s. Never before and never again.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")