Can you ask the Grading Companies - "Why?"
lsica
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Hopefully this is taken as an honest question and doesn't go "poof"....but can you ask any of the TPGs to explain why they gave a particular grade?
Philately will get you nowhere....
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You can ask but the answer will be that they stand by their decisions. Now, if you have an uber valuable coin and have insider connections you'd have all the info you want on why it grades what it grades.
You can ask but they probably won't respond.
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You can ask. There's even a Q&A forum here
But most TPGs don't generally answer questions like this.
Unless the coin were one of the extremely few (percentage-wise) which would be memorable to the graders, I don’t see how they could answer, even if they wanted to. It’s not like there will be notes on file which say something like “not enough luster for a higher grade” or “too many many marks for a higher grade”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The word I hear a lot is “subjective “. That sez quite a bit to me.
Lots of hands on time
Years of education about all aspects of coining.
A good eye.
I’m sure I’m leaving out a number of requirements. Plus with up to 3 different people looking at the coin I’m not sure how you would arrive at one thing. Each set of eyes may notice slightly different things.
As long as I’ve been reading this forum I don’t recall anyone being given a detailed explanation. 😉
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I sent a higher value $20 gold piece to NGC a couple years ago for conservation and I did get some insights from Rick M. on it. ICG will give grader insights on coins sometimes if you call and speak to a grader; also have gotten notes on individual coins from them.
Good to know
It's nice when you can get feedback!
For the charge it should just be included. Would only add a minute of two to the grading process. Or add a 5$ fee to have the defects noted.
Have not heard much about direct feedback from TPG's.... JA at CAC has frequently given responses when queried....Cheers, RickO
After submitting a coin as a regrade twice in hopes of getting a plus, I PMed Brett while the coins were still at PCGS. I was told PCGS didn’t have the resources to do it with its current set up, but there was some internal discussion of possibly offering a notes service with feedback for a fee. The idea appears to have gone no where, and Brett has sadly left.
This would be a great idea. Just make the cost of the feedback scale with tier as well. I know there's a handful of coins I'd have submitted for regrade/reconsideration again if I could get an explanation. Even if it wasn't feedback I was thrilled with, it'd be valuable to know.
Well I hate to disagree with of all people Mark Feld!, but, I have asked in the past and there are "notes on file" corresponding to the Serial number. I remember sending in a 1909 VDB I thought was a Major DDO and I was informed that not only was it not the variety I was hoping, but I was told the coin had been sent in 7 times prior . Likewise another time there was a "note" from the an order I sent in about a given coin. I also recall a conversation with David Hall that they did keep notes on some coins to answer the next crack out persons questions fully expecting to see some coins coming back for a grade. Now do they do this for every coin of every submission - I doubt it, but its worth asking in my opinion.
WS
Well, I hate to disagree, too, but I don’t think we really disagree😉, at least to a significant extent. Please allow me to put it this way - in the very large majority of cases, I don’t think there are notes available, which would allow for such a question to be answered. And sure, it’s worth asking.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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You paid for research and variety attribution. That is a very different animal from saying coin X is too ugly for the plus but not ugly enough for the grade down.
Days the person with no knowledge of their cost structure.
A minute or two added to the grading process cuts the number of coins graded in half or more.
Graders spend a few seconds on most coins. Adding a minute is an enormous loss of productivity.
I’ve always imagined they avoid letting customers receive feedback because it opens up TPGs to complaints/lawsuits.
IMO It’s the same reason why companies hiring do not tell candidates why they did not get hired.
We all would start posting our coins with feedback and next thing you know there’s a class action lawsuit about inconsistent standards.
can you ask any of the TPGs to explain why they gave a particular grade?
I think a better approach might be to post a high resolution picture of the coin in question at this forum, along with what the TPG graded it and what you think it should grade. then be prepared to answer some questions and to get some answers you might not like or agree with.
Are you sure? My coins submitted for grading are taking a while. Also, a quick glance of a coin is definitely not enough time to come up with a grade, especially if the grade could dramatically affect the value.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
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I have heard full time dealers repeat the cynical saying that the grading services want to see the coins multiple times because new submissions of classic US coins are limited and they need the revenue. Maybe I am too naive but I believe that most professionals do their jobs without bias. Cac usually gives a reason when asked why they did not give their sticker such as "abrasion". The question for them would they sticker at a lower grade or do they consider the issue outside of ANA grading standards acceptable numbers? All services can be as fussy as they want to be or not. Returns or guarantee/warranty submissions are always an option and they don't want to have to face too many of those. I don't see any warranty submissions on the latest PCGS page: https://www.pcgs.com/statistics
Yes, we're sure.
Can you ask the grading companies why? Why what?
Why do you not like my amazing coin? Why do you think you know more than I do? Why have you crushed my hopes and dreams and potentially ruining my marriage?
I get it —
The better question is for you: What is your experience with the series, numismatics, etc. How is your eye sight? What kind of light do you use to view your coins? How often do you grade coins? How many coins do you grade in a single session? How is your overall cognitive function? The list goes on and on....
I have only submitted a couple of dozen coins for grading and/or crossover. Each time I come away with a better understanding of the grading process. I think if I spent more time learning to grade, my intuition would be more frequently satisfied with the results.
Matt Snebold
What feedback are they going to give you, too many marks? How many are too many? Not enough luster? How much is enough? Weak strike? How weak? As others have said grading is in some respects subjective. Interpretation of "standards" are subjective.
In addition to that, although it might be relatively easy to provide answers to such questions in a face to face environment, trying to do so in a written note would tend to be far less helpful.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree to an extent but there’s honestly only a few categories of grading criteria. If they really wanted to they could just say “Coin graded MS64, did not grade MS65 due to luster ”
Maybe they will respond something like this:
“Dear Sir, ... we appreciated your inquiry involving your submitted coin to PCGS and we understand your concern of our assessment, listing your specimen as ‘AU details - harshly cleaned’ and we have noted your rebuttal. However, and with all due respect, your coin totally sucked, and we are shocked you even paid the money to have it graded. If you can’t see those gorges across both the fields and the legends - which wouldn’t be the case if they were polishing lines via your claim, not to mention the fact the coin has what looked like a crater right across the cheek, I mean, dude - what the hell were you thinking? You thought somehow the master hub had a chunk missing and somehow eluded the inspectors at the US Mint?? Ha ha - you know they do look for this, right? This coin has been literally scrubbed with a Brillo pad, and we know you got excited and overpaid on a binge-like session where you did zero research and bought photoshopped coins hoping to score big - and then only to not accept the reality of the situation when the real grade - from real experts, by the way - comes back and bites you in the ass!
Sincerely yours,
PCGS team
(P.S. please submit more coins! - we don’t care if they suck because we get paid either way!!)
@Jzyskowski1 idk why you laughed at the post/graph, its from an official PCGS webinar slide deck. If there are only 4 categories of inputs (surface preservation, luster, strike, eye appeal) resulting in 1 output (coin grade), it's not very difficult to list one of the inputs as your main reason for lack of next higher grade. This isn't rocket science.
The ANA has grading courses for people who wish to learn. Expecting grading companies to both apply their expertise and then either justify it or transfer it to you isn't really part of their mission.
The problem with that is that:
1. The evaluation is always going to be subjective.
2. It's not usually one or the other, it's a balance of all criteria.
@jmlanzaf I use to work in manufacturing as an engineer at a stamping facility. We had fairly defined criteria on cosmetic defects for our stamped metal products. We didn't have a robust 70 point grading scale like PCGS but nonetheless. I would argue that having clearly defined boundary samples of AU-58, MS-60, MS-63, MS-65 etc etc is as almost as perfect of a system you could have to go from a subjective grading system to a qualitative/data driven system. Will there always be human error yes, but 90% of members on this forum will usually have the same consensus on an MS-64 coin vs an MS-65. That's a testament to the process and I'd argue it's far from subjective as many of you describe.
I laughed because it’s funny. Sorry to offend and that was not my intention. Subjective, blown up in a graph. I believe everyone is unique and to see fixed portions for judgement calls just cracked me up. 🙃
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I said it before
AND I say it again:
until we have a recognized grading norm, we will always have arguments about grades.
we have norms about nails, screws, tires etc, etc,,,,...., oh, I forgot coins?????
size, weight value etc??? all specified to a T...
every time I mentioned it it fell on numb ears.
remember guys... IT is all about the mighty green buck.... or two.
It's not that the evaluation is completely subjective, but the criteria are highly subjective. It's not like "7 marks = 66". "Eye appeal" and "luster" are both highly subjective as is how distracting any particular mark is.
If the grader said, "luster is insufficient for a 66", they would get an argument. If the grader said, "while the cheek is clean, the mark in the field is distracting", they would get an argument. And what would the submitter say to "while the luster is above average and the cheek clean, the overall eye appeal is lacking"?
9 out of 10 graders probably agree on the grade +/- one grade. The submitter, however, is neither as experienced nor as objective as the grader. So every detailed evaluation could lead to an argument with the submitter who would challenge the "eye appeal", "luster" and degree of "distraction".
"90% of members on this forum will usually have the same consensus on an MS-64 coin vs an MS-65." That may be true if the post states the coin is either but when no grade is posted the guesses are all over the place like 58 thru 66 !
At least... probably an XF thrown in a well. Lol
And if the grader said “the combination of just slightly too weak luster and that small mark keep it from being a 66, and while neither in its own is strong enough to lower the grade, both together do” they’d get an argument.
The grading companies probably realize a few notes (opinions we should remember) would just lead to further questions.
Mum is the word seems their best strategy. I don't blame them. Many people (myself included on occasion!) have difficulty grading their own coins subjectively. Sort of like your child rides the bench but you KNOW he is the best player that dumb coach has.
You should have an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses at the time you buy a raw coin or as part of the decision to submit a coin.
Grading remains subjective and the why may not always be answered the same by those that are offering an opinion. Further, opinions can and do often change. This is sort of the readers digest condensed version of how it is...
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I once had a discussion with David Hall at LB when PCGS body bagged one of my early date large cents. He personally reviewed the coin with Gordy Wrubel (PCGS EAC expert grader/finalizer).