Most folks know the nature of EAC collectors. They don't need a slab and sure as H! don't need a sticker telling them the coin is graded correctly. Plastic rarely meet their standards! Does anyone think EAC would grade this coin a 66+?
@amwldcoin said:
How many people here really believe a green bean is going to make any difference in what that coin sells for???
Yes, I'm getting beat up, but I'll throw a similar question out to you: If they applied to CAC and it failed, are there people here who would bid less if they knew it was a "C" coin for a plain 66 (I'm NOT saying it is, but separately, CAC ignores plus grades), OR if they KNEW if failed to get a CAC because something had been done to the surfaces big enough to have kept it from getting a CAC?
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Steve
And coins with CAC bring more money. Though I have no plans to sell my coins, they will be left to my heirs and I want that to be easy for them.
@winesteven said:
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Steve
And coins with CAC bring more money. Though I have no plans to sell my coins, they will be left to my heirs and I want that to be easy for them.
PCGS+CAC is a winning combination. Are any of your heirs interested in coins? It's better to have them appreciate coins while you can enjoy it together.
@pcgscacgold said:
And coins with CAC bring more money. Though I have no plans to sell my coins, they will be left to my heirs and I want that to be easy for them.
AND to have a greater chance of receiving fair value!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Steve
And coins with CAC bring more money. Though I have no plans to sell my coins, they will be left to my heirs and I want that to be easy for them.
PCGS+CAC is a winning combination. Are any of your heirs interested in coins? It's better to have them appreciate coins while you can enjoy it together.
Agreed. Maybe EAC should start its own sticker service or start issuing photo certificates with the EAC grade and TPG grade.
@winesteven said:
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Steve
And coins with CAC bring more money. Though I have no plans to sell my coins, they will be left to my heirs and I want that to be easy for them.
PCGS+CAC is a winning combination. Are any of your heirs interested in coins? It's better to have them appreciate coins while you can enjoy it together.
One son started getting silver coins at work. He was so excited. I gave him dimes, quarters, half dollars and silver dollars to show what else to look for. Another son is making way too much money buying and selling baseball cards right now, but he is a collector and will transition to coins when he sees the gold.
@ianrussell said:
In regard to holder preference, many people prefer the regular blue label over a once-off type label for a collection like Pogue or Simpson. That being said, the coin is much more important than the label, and trust me when I say if you have this coin in your hand, the coin will wow you; you won't even be looking at the label.
Ian
No doubt the coin speaks for itself… As to the label, any insight on why the provenance was shortened to remove Naftzger? I know it isn’t a big deal as it is readily traceable but it seemed interesting that such an important pedigree was dropped from the label.
When did it have Naftzger on the holder? At the Pogue auction, it only had Pogue.
We had considered adding it back on prior to listing, but will leave that to the winning bidder (and we can help facilitate).
@winesteven said:
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Agreed. Maybe EAC should start its own sticker service or start issuing photo certificates with the EAC grade and TPG grade.
When major copper collections are auctioned by Heritage and Goldbergs, the EAC grade is provided in the auction description, along with the TPG grade. Many of the coins also have their old envelopes and inserts along with them, preserving the provenance and EAC grades assigned. I think this is sufficient for most collectors.
@winesteven said:
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Agreed. Maybe EAC should start its own sticker service or start issuing photo certificates with the EAC grade and TPG grade.
When major copper collections are auctioned by Heritage and Goldbergs, the EAC grade is provided in the auction description, along with the TPG grade. Many of the coins also have their old envelopes and inserts along with them, preserving the provenance and EAC grades assigned. I think this is sufficient for most collectors.
An interesting thing about EAC grading is that there is no overall "EAC grade", as each EAC grader’s grade is independent and valid. When Heritage lists EAC grades, they identify the EAC grader by name and will sometimes have more than one person named, with different EAC grades for each.
Here's a collection of photos for this Major William Boerum Wetmore coin
Here's some info on Wetmore from Stack's. It's amazing this is selling at GC by Ian Russell, 105 years after it was first sold at auction by Henry Chapman!
Stack's Bowers wrote:
It is difficult to imagine what a finer 1796 Liberty Cap cent would look like, not that any such coin exists. The first time this coin sold at auction, in June 1906, Henry Chapman described it as not only the finest 1796 Liberty Cap, but "the finest cent of this date known. Unique in this state of preservation." Its owner at the time, Major William Boerum Wetmore, had been collecting since about 1860, blessed with family wealth to acquire most any coin he wished. He purchased the Cohen Specimen of the 1804 dollar, a Class I Original, in 1878; his divorce from his cousin made the society pages in 1892, complete with allegations of gambling and other unpleasantness.
John N. Lupia III wrote:
Wetmore, Maj. William Boerum (1849-1919), 167 Madison Avenue, New York; 5 Waverly Place, Greenwich Village, New York, and Allenhurst New Jersey. He is the son of Samuel Wetmore (1812-1885) and Sarah T. Boerum (1820-1899) born on December 7, 1849. A friend of John Work Garrett (1820-1884) he was admitted to West Point upon recommendation by President Johnson from a request made by Garrett. He was a cadet at the U.S. Military Academy, West Point, 1867-72, served in the Indian War of 1874 and the Battle of Red River, and was a Cavalry Major 9th Regt. N.G.S.N.Y. 1879-1882 . In 1875 he published his address in Winner’s Coin & Stamp Journal as Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
His second marriage was to Katherine B. Havercamp . His collection of 1290 lots sold through the Samuel Hudson Chapman and Henry Chapman, 82nd sale. on June 27-28, 1906. Durst 674. Adams rating A. Contained ancient, Judaic, foreign coins, medals and gold, United States coins, medals, paper money, fractional currency, patterns and colonials. Among them was the famous Class I "Cohen Specimen" 1804 Silver Dollar.
He was an active life member of the ANS since May 20, 1879.
@fathom said:
Its a great coin, copper's just not happenin' right now.
I agree. I recently sold my 1/2 cent and large cent collections almost all drew weak prices. On the other hand I also sold my $5 and $10 cc gold which brought very strong prices on every coin.
@pcgscacgold said:
Great to get the background and hear it was stickered earlier. Great to have the CAC sticker on high end coins.
I find it highly unlikely that anyone who can afford this mid six figure coin cares one whit whether CAC “agrees” with PCGS’s grade opinion of MS66+RB. It’s the finest known 1796 Liberty Cap cent. It doesn’t matter whether the holder says MS66 or 67. It also doesn’t matter what CAC thinks, ie whether they consider it “high-end” for the grade. It’s not like they could lay out 10 in this grade and award their bean sticker to the best three.
@wrighty said:
Wow surprised it sold for 30% less than the last price of $705,000 realized in 2017.
The audience of collectors who can afford this treasure of a coin is obviously limited. The price a coin such as this brings at auction is highly dependent upon who is is in the market for it at any given time.
All the Pogue coins were viewed by CAC before catalog descriptions were needed.
Brent was upset because the very very important 1808 $2 1/2 NGC MS65 didn't pass, not did one of the small eagle halves.***
He presented his displeasure to someone in the Stacks organization who then, hanging her head apologetically, negotiated with JA knowing he was going to be polite and not shoot the messenger when she had to pass along Brent's insistence that it was all-or-none based on these two highlights. so none of his coins otherwise have stickers on them while under his care and ownership. No stickers were to be applied . Nor was the catalog to include any indication of CAC submission or result. And so it was done.
But... and a sad And.... but a good But
And ..... Brent's judgment was, for the three decades I knew him, to some degree impaired by alcohol. He fired or was fired by a least a couple of All-Time All-Times (DWA, AJT) things ended poorly with some illustriously impeccable others.
But .... the coins had been viewed and the results were in the Census. No one from Stacks ever asked they be pulled, just "Stickers, we don't need no stinking sticker". Likely a request without precedent in scope.
The slab number for each coin was in the catalog listing.
The coin number (of course) got a yes or no when verified
And a week or two after each catalogue was published, a list of passing lot numbers developed by a private collector was published elsewhee and then linkified here. The point is that every buyer at Pogue had ample opportunity to do their due diligence.
*** Brent's 1808 QE is also the Hayes coin. I recall a conversation with Jimmy and Dave Akers after Stacks sold Jimmy's sets in '85. .... We all enjoyed each others' senses of humor..... . Jimmy says "I wake up every once in a while from a bad dream and grade it a 63+", And then Dave said "So what's your point?" and a second later we're all smirking.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
It's a truly beautiful coin. But being the paranoid person I am, after having one early copper (pre 1815) turn in holder on me eight years after I bought it, if it's not in a PCGS original or OGH, I won't buy it.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Comments
Most folks know the nature of EAC collectors. They don't need a slab and sure as H! don't need a sticker telling them the coin is graded correctly. Plastic rarely meet their standards! Does anyone think EAC would grade this coin a 66+?
Do any EAC faithful come here?
I'm not sure but I haven't seen much EAC discussion here.
Every collector determines for themselves the standards they want for coins in their collections. You or I may have different standards, and all is good for everyone! The key comes when it’s time to sell!!!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
And coins with CAC bring more money. Though I have no plans to sell my coins, they will be left to my heirs and I want that to be easy for them.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
PCGS+CAC is a winning combination. Are any of your heirs interested in coins? It's better to have them appreciate coins while you can enjoy it together.
AND to have a greater chance of receiving fair value!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Agreed. Maybe EAC should start its own sticker service or start issuing photo certificates with the EAC grade and TPG grade.
One son started getting silver coins at work. He was so excited. I gave him dimes, quarters, half dollars and silver dollars to show what else to look for. Another son is making way too much money buying and selling baseball cards right now, but he is a collector and will transition to coins when he sees the gold.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
When did it have Naftzger on the holder? At the Pogue auction, it only had Pogue.
We had considered adding it back on prior to listing, but will leave that to the winning bidder (and we can help facilitate).
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Imagine the care that must've been taken for that coin to have survived 225 years in that condition. Copper is pretty reactive to the environment.
When major copper collections are auctioned by Heritage and Goldbergs, the EAC grade is provided in the auction description, along with the TPG grade. Many of the coins also have their old envelopes and inserts along with them, preserving the provenance and EAC grades assigned. I think this is sufficient for most collectors.
An interesting thing about EAC grading is that there is no overall "EAC grade", as each EAC grader’s grade is independent and valid. When Heritage lists EAC grades, they identify the EAC grader by name and will sometimes have more than one person named, with different EAC grades for each.
Yep, even the ranking of coins in the upper tier of the condition census varies among the experts.
Here's a collection of photos for this Major William Boerum Wetmore coin
Here's some info on Wetmore from Stack's. It's amazing this is selling at GC by Ian Russell, 105 years after it was first sold at auction by Henry Chapman!
Ref: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QP9L/1796-liberty-cap-cent-liberty-cap-sheldon-84-liberty-cap-rarity-3-mint-state-66-rb-pcgs
Here's a biography:
Ref: http://www.numismaticmall.com/numismaticmall-com/wetmore-william-boerum
Auction ended - $483,750 all in. Congratulations to the new owner!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Sold for 705K in 2017; a bargain?
Wow surprised it sold for 30% less than the last price of $705,000 realized in 2017.
Its a great coin, copper's just not happenin' right now.
Congratulations to the high bidder!
I agree. I recently sold my 1/2 cent and large cent collections almost all drew weak prices. On the other hand I also sold my $5 and $10 cc gold which brought very strong prices on every coin.
I find it highly unlikely that anyone who can afford this mid six figure coin cares one whit whether CAC “agrees” with PCGS’s grade opinion of MS66+RB. It’s the finest known 1796 Liberty Cap cent. It doesn’t matter whether the holder says MS66 or 67. It also doesn’t matter what CAC thinks, ie whether they consider it “high-end” for the grade. It’s not like they could lay out 10 in this grade and award their bean sticker to the best three.
The audience of collectors who can afford this treasure of a coin is obviously limited. The price a coin such as this brings at auction is highly dependent upon who is is in the market for it at any given time.
All the Pogue coins were viewed by CAC before catalog descriptions were needed.
Brent was upset because the very very important 1808 $2 1/2 NGC MS65 didn't pass, not did one of the small eagle halves.***
He presented his displeasure to someone in the Stacks organization who then, hanging her head apologetically, negotiated with JA knowing he was going to be polite and not shoot the messenger when she had to pass along Brent's insistence that it was all-or-none based on these two highlights. so none of his coins otherwise have stickers on them while under his care and ownership. No stickers were to be applied . Nor was the catalog to include any indication of CAC submission or result. And so it was done.
But... and a sad And.... but a good But
And ..... Brent's judgment was, for the three decades I knew him, to some degree impaired by alcohol. He fired or was fired by a least a couple of All-Time All-Times (DWA, AJT) things ended poorly with some illustriously impeccable others.
But .... the coins had been viewed and the results were in the Census. No one from Stacks ever asked they be pulled, just "Stickers, we don't need no stinking sticker". Likely a request without precedent in scope.
The slab number for each coin was in the catalog listing.
The coin number (of course) got a yes or no when verified
And a week or two after each catalogue was published, a list of passing lot numbers developed by a private collector was published elsewhee and then linkified here. The point is that every buyer at Pogue had ample opportunity to do their due diligence.
*** Brent's 1808 QE is also the Hayes coin. I recall a conversation with Jimmy and Dave Akers after Stacks sold Jimmy's sets in '85. .... We all enjoyed each others' senses of humor..... . Jimmy says "I wake up every once in a while from a bad dream and grade it a 63+", And then Dave said "So what's your point?" and a second later we're all smirking.
It's a truly beautiful coin. But being the paranoid person I am, after having one early copper (pre 1815) turn in holder on me eight years after I bought it, if it's not in a PCGS original or OGH, I won't buy it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."