What do you think of these silver surfaces?
Zoins
Posts: 34,186 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is a silver medal where I thought the toning was interesting and I was wondering what people thought of this.
The auction cataloguer describes this as:
Lovely frosty to semi-prooflike surfaces are pleasingly toned in iridescent champagne-pink and steel-olive. The strike is sharply executed with all design elements crisp.
The strike looks good for what seem to be fairly high relief central elements for the bell and Independence Hall.
This appears to be a fairly rare medal. It's listed as a R8. PCGS has 1 in the census and NGC has 2. I haven't found any photos of the 2 NGC specimens, so I'm not sure if the PCGS specimen is also one of the NGC ones.
This is cataloged as So-Called Dollar HK-23.
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Looks like a full stepper.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Here are some close ups.
That it does!
And FBL! ...........(just to beat someone to it)
Is there another coin with more dates? Extremely nice details.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
It does have a lot of dates! 7 from my count!
I like that medal. Having been to Independence Hall several times, such things are special to me. I will look for one of those...not necessarily slabbed though. Cheers, RickO
Do you like this particular specimen or just the design type?
Just want to make sure since this one isn’t white!
@Zoins.... Yep... I like that one too... even though it is 'aged'... much like myself.
Cheers, RickO
Thanks Rick! That's high praise indeed!
I do like the look of the central devices a lot, the Liberty Bell and Independence Hall.
@Zoins... That is what immediately caught my attention....brought back memories of my visits there. Cheers, RickO
The print kills the look for me, and I would not call that tone attractive.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Which print?
Good thought! This was a primary question for me so I’m glad you addressed it.
There may only be 2 to 3 of these in existence so it's a consideration when collecting these.
The fingerprint near the upper left reverse, I also see what appear to be lots of hairlines very noticeable below the bell. Yes for some collectors the limited availability of the items they collect does limit the options at times. That is one of the reasons I say away from items like this. If a coin is so difficult to locate that my only option is to buy one that I would not find appealing I just lose interest as I would not enjoy owning something that I could not enjoy viewing. But I understand why others do choose to buy these coins.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Not the best toning, but has a nice overall look to it. I dont care for the fingerprint either but it is what it is. Nice
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The toning is old and probably the pattern probably results from an old cleaning and improper washing of the cleaning agent. Still, it seems to be a reasonably nice looking example of a scarce to rare medal. I like it.
It does look like some improper washing of a cleaning agent.
I've wondered what it would look like with a dip and if such an action would make it nicer or worse.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. It certainly is an interesting piece given the rarity.
The fingerprint is not great to me but not terrible as it doesn't have the sharp definition of many fingerprints.
I'm curious what the olive color looks like in hand.
It will be interesting as these effects are somewhat on the periphery and the central devices look sharp.
I have never seen one of these with any strike weakness. they may exist, but with the high relief every one I've owned or viewed has been crisp.
Good to note. I haven't seen any either but I'm guessing you've seen more than I have.
F.C. Key & Sons did a great job with this. Do we know which Key was active during 1876?
I think the development of that toning was affected by the presence of oil on the surface. The oil could have come from a PVC "flip" that the medal was stored in at some point.
Good thoughts Dan.
Okay, so now that a number of people have commented on the surfaces and possible cause, do people think this medal can be improved by a dip or other conservation method? Or is this the best that it gets?
I like this coin if you posted it two weeks ago I would bid on it. It is too late now. LOL
Buy it, then dip it, then slab it again???
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
This particular piece shows evidence of being struck more than once. A previous, underlying strike can be observed slightly to the left of the main details. Strong strike was likely a quality the maker was striving for.
As for surfaces, they are obviously unnatural, and very bright. I’m not sure any additional work on this medal is going to improve its appearance.
Love the designs.
The toning seems unnatural is both origin and final presentation. In my experience, another chemical treatment will only hurt.
I don't see anything unnatural about the appearance of this medal and see no reason to conserve it in any way, other than perhaps a wash with acetone to assure there are no contaminants on the surface to further tone it. since it is already quite dark that would seem the cause, something on it causing it to head towards terminal black.
the trouble with stuff like this is that collectors always expect Exonumia to behave like standard coins and tone in the same way. they are struck differently, handled differently and stored differently. it isn't as simple as silver toning like silver. an issue I'm currently researching is HK-308, nearly impossible to buy at a reasonable price and always looking sort of horrid. there might be 20-30 in existence and they all appear to be headed to terminal black, very dark like this. they need to have just the right lighting to show color. an example is below.
straight on lighting.
angled, high intensity lighting.
I agree these often have dark toning. Here's a nice looking HK-308 I ran across:
1904 President Roosevelt Dollar - silver - HK-308 - NGC PF64
Anyone know of any provenance for this specimen or who owns this now?
I agree these often have dark toning. Here's a nice looking HK-308 I ran across.
and I have no doubt that if this medal was viewed straight -on with normal lighting that it would be as dark as the one I posted, that's just the way they all seem to have toned.
You don’t see the smeared droplets of liquid?
@zoins, I think there is a lot of variability on how old silver pieces "age" or "tone." HK-23 in silver is so rare, I think that the buyer got a great deal on the price, and I am sure this piece will look interesting in hand. My HK-308 is dark, has bluish toning, and has variations in the toning like @keets post; I would like something nicer, but I got it at such a good deal, and after some conservation and time in the slab, I am happy enough with it for the low price I paid. My HK-23 is similar, dark toning with bluish tones. I sort of agree with @coinbuf about the fingerprint. I returned a nice SCD back to a dealer due to that exact issue as after a week as I couldn't stand it...I always saw the fingerprint every time I looked at the coin.... but it was a piece I figured I could buy again (ie find another). HK-23 in silver is so rare, you might have to wait forever to see another... and I would have to see this piece in hand to decide how much of an issue it is. For the sale price, I would keep it for a 146 year old silver piece.
A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...
Thanks for your observations. The olive color and the droplet remnants are what I'm more curious about conserving. The fingerprint actually doesn't bother me too much on this one from the photos since the fingerprint lines are blurred enough that it doesn't really remind me of one. It reminds me of a spaceship settling in over Independence Hall on Independence Day
I do like the color and the brightness of the central Liberty Bell and Independence Hall devices from the TrueView.
You don’t see the smeared droplets of liquid?
I'm not sure what you're interpreting as "smeared droplets of liquid" on the medal. consider the Canadian Dollar pictured below: if you weren't familiar with them and didn't know how they were packaged and toned, you might think that Dollar had been altered with liquid in some fashion. in short, I see no indication of anything unnatural on the medal or the coin.
Great example @keets! These Canadian coins are a very prominent example of this kind of toning!
>
I'm not sure if you zoomed in on the picture above but it's clearly streaked liquid and not a fingerprint. I have a little bit of experience in collecting and analyzing fingerprints. And by analyzing I mean staring at 1000's of things that may or may not be fingerprints to determine if they were worth sending off to the FBI lab. There is a 0.0 chance that it's a fingerprint.
Notice how the lines terminate; jagged, pointed.
Notice the irregular spacing between lines.
Notice the abrupt variations in the thickness of a continuous line.
Notice the variation in the thickness of one line to another.
ok. enough. you convinced me. i agree it is either ddo or lightly double struck. umm. nevermind. after looking at the image above this post, i vote double struck. but i think this is not too rare since they were aiming at pristine strikes.
unfortunately, this is as good as it will probably ever look unless someone "enhances/advances" some nice strong toning but with altered surfaces, it will probably not tone appropriately. anyone dips that one, they are in for a long painful night of regret.
I'm not sure if you zoomed in on the picture above but it's clearly streaked liquid and not a fingerprint.
please review my posts and tell me where I mentioned anything about fingerprints.