DELETE

PillarDollarCollector

.

Zoins

Are there links to the sale for both of these?

How much did it sell for the last time it sold? Are there PCGS Price Guide prices for these?

PillarDollarCollector

https://auctions.canadiancoinsandpapermoney.com/auction/173/the-prominence-sale-v-major-event

They are worth about 450k-500k for the penny and 150k-200k for the dime that sold this evening in this grade there are higher graded ones. I believe 3 of the dimes are in the Canadian coin museum and 3 available to collectors. I do not know if the museum has the dot penny last time I went was 15 years ago and they did not have one (only 3 exist).

PillarDollarCollector

I am talking Canadian dollars not US. I think the dime last sold for 115k US in 2006 at Heritage Auctions. As for the penny I can't remember maybe 450k Canadian. They have not gone up much in value in a long time I think.

PillarDollarCollector

These coins are in the big 4 Canadian coins to own including the king of Canadian coins the 1921 50 cent (50 to 75 known) and the emperor of Canadian coins the 1911 dollar. Only 3 exist (2 types of metals can't remember how many of each but only exist total) and 2 are in the museum of coins here in Canada and the other with a dealer who purchased it with a partner and they will never be selling they may loan it to the museum so all 3 are together or just keep it and when they pass away do that. I know for certain they will never sell it they want all 3 to remain inside of Canada.

PillarDollarCollector

I know at one point one of the 1911 dollars sold for a little over 1$ million dollars then the same one went for around 700k last time it sold but as I said it will never be sold again.

Whatever lands in the museum will most likely always stay there maybe coins on loan will get out at some point I have no idea.

PillarDollarCollector

Just looked the 1936 dot dime ended at 119 000$ Canadian all-in.

bosox

1. That Canadian dot cent was not the finest. At $300K+ in the Canadian market, that matters.

2. The 10 cent dot is a little more common and at 63 has a market at $100K. Much higher, not so much.

I don't mean to say these are not great and classic Canadian coins, but they benefit much from the hype from Pittman and others. IMO other Canadian coins are both rarer and more historically important.

bosox

For example, this one. One known in the Royal Mint Museum, plus this one. An 1876-H bronze pattern in obverse portrait C1A, PCGS SP66RB. Obverse portrait type, or reverse dot, what is important? It depends upon the beholder and what sales pitch they swallow.

[]https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/canada-victoria-specimen-1-cent-1876-h-sp66-red-and-brown-pcgs-/a/3041-29005.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116()

PillarDollarCollector

I just meant top 4 that most people know about.

bosox

Touche. But why do most people know about them? I would submit it is because Pittman and a few others promoted them. They are rare. They are important. IMO they are not worth 100x what other rarer Canadian coins are worth. Hype over time creates such demand and prices.

Zoins

1836 Canada Dot Cent - PCGS SP65RB POP 2/0 - Ex. John Jay Pittman; Sid and Alicia Belzberg; George Hans Cook

Does anyone know what happened to this coin? In 2010, it was in a PCGS SP66RD holder, but by 2019 it was in a PCGS SP65RB holder. It looks pretty red when it sold in 201 as part of the Canadiana Collection. It appears darker in the 2019 Cook Collection sale.

The price also dropped, going from USD 402k in 2010 to USD 312k in 2019.

• Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/37098955
• Sale on 15 August 2019: https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/world-coins/canada-george-v-specimen-dot-cent-1936-sp65-red-and-brown-pcgs-/a/3075-31048.s
• Sale on 23 January 2010: https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/world-coins/canada-george-v-cent-1936-dot-/a/3008-20009.s

Zoins

1836 Canada Dot Cent - PCGS SP65RB POP 2/0 - John Jay Pittman; Cornerstone Collection

Here's another in the same grade.

• Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36632063

Zoins

1836 Canada Dot Cent - PCGS MS63RD POP 1/2 - Ex. John Jay Pittman; Chester Lee Krause

Now that the Pittman-Cook specimen has downgraded, this is the only remaining Red coin.

Of note, this is the coin that was stolen from Pittman's home.

Heritage notes the scratches in the field in their description. If this was not a dot cent, I'm guessing it would details grade due to the scratches.

• Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/21311179
• Sale on 18 April 2013: https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/world-coins/canada-george-v-1936-dot-cent-andnbsp-/a/3024-23392.s

Zoins

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
I was surprised but the opening bid was 385 000$ Canadian + commission + taxes. I know it is a ton of money but truly surprised no one bid.

Perhaps people are waiting to see if it gets the coveted CNAS sticker?

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1066129/new-sticker-service-for-canadian-coins#latest

7Jaguars

I like Canadian coins well enough without collecting them, but I do believe "hype" is the correct term when a simple dot is apparently the only difference between these and other coins of the same date. Not even minor other detail changes evidently?
The 1911 dollar I understand, as well as the 1921 half....

Zoins

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
https://auctions.canadiancoinsandpapermoney.com/auction/173/the-prominence-sale-v-major-event

Finally found the lot. That site's search and navigation can use some constructive feedback

It's Lot 94:

https://auctions.canadiancoinsandpapermoney.com/auction/173/the-prominence-sale-v-major-event/session/327/lot/94

The one offered was the Pittman-Belzberg-Cook Specimen.

The start price is approximately USD 310k, or just below what it sold for in 2019.

1936 Dot 1¢ PCGS Specimen-65 Red & Brown. The 1936 dot coinage of Canada is the most mystical in the realm of numismatic treasu

1936 Dot 1¢ PCGS Specimen-65 Red & Brown. The 1936 dot coinage of Canada is the most mystical in the realm of numismatic treasures. Most Canadians can identify with the famous Dot coins…. especially the elusive penny. Many comic book series and general reading magazines spawned many want ads for the famous copper coin. These ads played out from the 60’s thru the 80’s. The mystery of when the existing coins were made and why some survived is still cloudy. For the numismatic connoisseurs this “Holy Grail” set gives great pleasure to any eventual owner of pieces or an entire set. Fate offers up this magnificent example of the penny that was coveted by John J. Pittman for many years. This offered coin is tied finest graded with one other example that resides in the “Cornerstone” set. There is also a lone example in the National Currency collection that was gifted by the LaFortune family. LaFortune was a former mint employee. (LaFortune was the previous owner of the Dot 10 Cents also being offered in this auctio

1960NYGiants

The Cook specimen was mishandled by Cook. The story is - he cracked it out of the original holder and handled the coin, possibly cleaned it. The collection was re-graded after his death. Many of the coins in Cook's collection suffered this process.

TwoKopeiki

Man, straight grade was a gift on that Pittman coin.

Zoins

@7Jaguars said:
I like Canadian coins well enough without collecting them, but I do believe "hype" is the correct term when a simple dot is apparently the only difference between these and other coins of the same date. Not even minor other detail changes evidently?
The 1911 dollar I understand, as well as the 1921 half....

What might blow your mind is that some people will pay more for coins that are physically identical to others but came with different packaging, which has since been discarded

Zoins

@1960NYGiants said:
The Cook specimen was mishandled by Cook. The story is - he cracked it out of the original holder and handled the coin, possibly cleaned it. The collection was re-graded after his death. Many of the coins in Cook's collection suffered this process.

Very interesting and also sad for the coins and the hobby.

From a selling perspective, perhaps it's not so good to note the George Hans Cook provenance then?

Zoins

@TwoKopeiki said:
Man, straight grade was a gift on that Pittman coin.

PCGS's grading brochure used to explicitly sate they do this as a "service to the community" for noteworthy coins. I'm not sure if that brochure is still in use.

PillarDollarCollector

I know it is just a dot not a date rarity like the 1911 dollar and 1921 50 cent piece but still very important and historical coins in my opinion. I would love to own either one or both of the cent and dime. They are are major Canadian coins and that will not change.

PillarDollarCollector

The 1936 dot dime and penny are ''magical/mystical'' coins that is never going to change has been like that for so so long.

Zoins

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
The 1936 dot dime and penny are ''magical/mystical'' coins that is never going to change has been like that for so so long.

Of note, the 3 specimens that can be privately owned is the same number of US 1913 Liberty nickels that can be privately owned.

PillarDollarCollector

@Zoins said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
The 1936 dot dime and penny are ''magical/mystical'' coins that is never going to change has been like that for so so long.

Of note, the 3 specimens that can be privately owned is the same number of US 1913 Liberty nickels that can be privately owned.

If it was a US coin it would have sold so fast at 385 000$ Canadian (opening bid).

bosox

I don't dispute that the 36 dot cent and ten-cent are important patterns and even iconic coins via their pedigree. I merely question what factors make them worth 50 or 100 times what other just-as-rare, historically important Canadian patterns and trials are worth. The short answer is that they have a higher demand, but why?

I guess I could ask the same question about the Una and the Lion five pounds. How do coins like these get to become such status coins, while others do not?

Zoins

@bosox said:
I don't dispute that the 36 dot cent and ten-cent are important patterns and even iconic coins via their pedigree. I merely question what factors make them worth 50 or 100 times what other just-as-rare, historically important Canadian patterns and trials are worth. The short answer is that they have a higher demand, but why?

I guess I could ask the same question about the Una and the Lion five pounds. How do coins like these get to become such status coins, while others do not?

Marketing?

pruebas

@Zoins said:

@bosox said:
I don't dispute that the 36 dot cent and ten-cent are important patterns and even iconic coins via their pedigree. I merely question what factors make them worth 50 or 100 times what other just-as-rare, historically important Canadian patterns and trials are worth. The short answer is that they have a higher demand, but why?

I guess I could ask the same question about the Una and the Lion five pounds. How do coins like these get to become such status coins, while others do not?

Marketing?

Marketing maybe for the dot cent and similar. But demand for the Una and Three Graces, etc. These are considered some of the most beautiful English coins ever minted and in high demand for their beauty.

7Jaguars

I really don't agree that a USA coin with merely a dot would go quickly at 385k+ - also that is DOUBLE the price that the 1933 GB fetched just recently.

PillarDollarCollector

I get it guys but they are what they are the modern day comparable are the 2000P quarters (the Caribou the most important of them all) and half dollar.

bosox

Should a 2000 pattern be as important in the marketplace as an 1858 (the first year of decimal coinage) pattern with lower mintage? I guess that is part of my question.

bosox

One hypothesis might be that a sufficient population of 2000P quarters exists that a serious collector might hope to procure one in a year or two, but some of the 1858 patterns appear for sale so infrequently that might be impossible, thereby quashing demand. We might make the same case about Una and the Lion. If I want to mortgage my house I can buy one in 12-18 months, no sweat. Not so with some of the Canadian Victorian patterns.

Does the demand for very rare patterns actually go down for once-in-a-generation coins?

PillarDollarCollector

@bosox said:
Should a 2000 pattern be as important in the marketplace as an 1858 (the first year of decimal coinage) pattern with lower mintage? I guess that is part of my question.

No but they are still important none the less.

PillarDollarCollector

@bosox said:
One hypothesis might be that a sufficient population of 2000P quarters exists that a serious collector might hope to procure one in a year or two, but some of the 1858 patterns appear for sale so infrequently that might be impossible, thereby quashing demand. We might make the same case about Una and the Lion. If I want to mortgage my house I can buy one in 12-18 months, no sweat. Not so with some of the Canadian Victorian patterns.

Does the demand for very rare patterns actually go down for once-in-a-generation coins?

I was just pointing out the 2000P quarters remind me of the 36 dot coinage in a modern way is all.

bosox

I don't disagree. I am merely trying to get at the bigger questions.

PillarDollarCollector

@bosox said:
I don't disagree. I am merely trying to get at the bigger questions.

Those questions have been going on for decades the dot coins are the coins people are willing to spend big bucks on. I know where you stand but I don't see any of this changing. You have to have people wanting the coins you mentioned and willing to spend huge amounts and it is not the case and will likely never happen.

bosox

Because it has always been that way does not answer the question of, why?

syl

In my opinion, it(they) carry big bucks because they have been written about since well before WWl, and notoriety causes more interest and many more "I gotta have it" collectors. It's just like the 1858 large cent with, supposedly, a very small mintage. However there are some 1859/8's hugely more scarce than the 1858 and go for 1/10 the price. It's supply and demand and thick wallets.

PillarDollarCollector

@bosox said:
Because it has always been that way does not answer the question of, why?

Because people got on board with it simple as that the hype became real and they are ultra rarities that most coin collectors would love to own. You may not care for them but many do care for them.

I know what you mean but not you or me are going to change a thing about it. The other coins you mention will never be at the level of the two dot coins just not going to happen and you should be happy they are not because they would cost you and most of us our homes. So I say enjoy them and be happy they are much cheaper.

The 1921 50 cent is more important than any of these that I will never change my mind on a rare date is different than a variety.

PillarDollarCollector

@syl said:
In my opinion, it(they) carry big bucks because they have been written about since well before WWl, and notoriety causes more interest and many more "I gotta have it" collectors. It's just like the 1858 large cent with, supposedly, a very small mintage. However there are some 1859/8's hugely more scarce than the 1858 and go for 1/10 the price. It's supply and demand and thick wallets.

They are the stuff of legends and will remain that way.