09SVDB Lets toss this one back & forth, This coin is back again (better pictures requested)

MarkW63

It looks to have a deep valley "N" in the word UNITED on the reverse.
The pictures don't help much with verifying the designers initials for positive sure?
Then there is the "S" mint mark, its known that there was four obverse die sets used, I've ruled this one down to set #4 but does it actually match? does the mint mark look to be slanted to the left a little?
Does anyone else see anything wrong with the coin?
Opinions Please.

Here is an example of the #4 die set.

This is an example of the shallow valley "N" found on a genuine 09SVDB

mr1931S

Looks genuine to me.

jesbroken

The obverse appears ok to me, the reverse I'm not sure of. There are different looks to the shallow N. Such as this CoinFacts version(one of several)
Jim

Steven59

The S is too blurry to see if is the correct 001 style. And going by the pictures it is too high - the MM should be under the tail of the first 9 not even with it. VDB is hard to tell also blurry but definitely looks to have the deep valleys in the N. JMO

MarkW63

@Steven59 said:
The S is too blurry to see if is the correct 001 style. And going by the pictures it is too high - the MM should be under the tail of the first 9 not even with it. VDB is hard to tell also blurry but definitely looks to have the deep valleys in the N. JMO

Good day Steven!
I looked pretty closely at the images of all four die sets, the one I saw as the most vertical (straight up) was die #4) the others lean slightly to the right, so the coin in the OP appears to be slightly leaning to the left.
Later I'll post the images of the other three die sets.

WAYNEAS

Have you asked the seller for better pictures especially on the VDB?
Wayne

Steven59

@MarkW63 said:

[ I look pretty closely at the images of all four die sets, the one I saw as the most vertical (straight up) was die #4) the other lean slightly to the right, so the coin in the OP appears to be slightly leaning to the left. ]

OK, I was going by Die #4. The 1, 2, & 3 dies have the MM align with the tails of the 9s.

4

Looking at the Die pair#3 picture the sellers coins MM may just be too far to the right under to 0 of the date. But better pictures would be needed.

3

EDIT: I tried enlarging the pictures but had trouble doing that for some reason

MsMorrisine

I have my issues with it, but I wouldn't report it without more investigation

the mintmark is twisted left
the nose is more pointed
"RTY" seem slightly misshaped

MarkW63

@MsMorrisine said:
I have my issues with it, but I wouldn't report it without more investigation

the mintmark is twisted left
the nose is more pointed
"RTY" seem slightly misshaped

I 100% agree, this may only end being a good discussion piece

MarkW63

@WAYNEAS said:
Have you asked the seller for better pictures especially on the VDB?
Wayne

Not yet, I may later tonight.

WAYNEAS

@MarkW63 said:

@WAYNEAS said:
Have you asked the seller for better pictures especially on the VDB?
Wayne

Not yet, I may later tonight.

Let us know how you make out.
Wayne

lkenefic

The image of the questionable coin is too blurry for me to tell anything. I think the MM is too high to be a #4 die. I also can't tell if the surfaces around the MM have been smoothed over... poor resolution. The main markers I use for the reverse on this issue... placement of the periods between VDB and the font on B... also can't be seen.

IDK... interesting post...

Edited to add: fingerprint notwithstanding...

jesbroken

@MarkW63 said:

@MsMorrisine said:
I have my issues with it, but I wouldn't report it without more investigation

the mintmark is twisted left
the nose is more pointed
"RTY" seem slightly misshaped

I 100% agree, this may only end being a good discussion piece

I believe I agree Mark. Hard to be 100% and say counterfeit. Although I do agree the "S" appears a little high and some left of the nine. But if counterfeit, how in the world did the counterfeiter get the little marker inside the "S"? Hopefully, you will get better pics of the reverse that will allow better enlargement. Good luck.
Jim

MarkW63

@jesbroken said:

@MarkW63 said:

@MsMorrisine said:
I have my issues with it, but I wouldn't report it without more investigation

the mintmark is twisted left
the nose is more pointed
"RTY" seem slightly misshaped

I 100% agree, this may only end being a good discussion piece

I believe I agree Mark. Hard to be 100% and say counterfeit. Although I do agree the "S" appears a little high and some left of the nine. But if counterfeit, how in the world did the counterfeiter get the little marker inside the "S"? Hopefully, you will get better pics of the reverse that will allow better enlargement. Good luck.
Jim

Lets be careful and not get the images mixed up.
Just to make sure about the image your using, that its not of the coin in question, that's an example of a genuine coin.
I'd like to have an image half that good of the coin in question, but that would make it to easy LoL!

Below is all four of the die set groups that I use as examples of genuine 09SVDB's (in order top to bottom, 1-4)

Next, is the image of the coin in question!

lkenefic

It could be just lighting in the image, but what's that smudge to the right of the MM? It gets more pixelated as I enlarge but I'm on my phone...

ifthevamzarockin

The N on the reverse indicates a problem, not much need to go further.

The S looks more pronounced than the date, there is a chance for an added or embossed mint mark.

jesbroken

@MarkW63
My bad Mark, I thought that was an enlargement of the coin in question. So sorry for the bad judgement on my part. I see now what you are speaking of and I would now believe the obverse to be questionable. Hope to get better pics of the reverse.
Jim

MarkW63

@jesbroken said:
@MarkW63
My bad Mark, I thought that was an enlargement of the coin in question. So sorry for the bad judgement on my part. I see now what you are speaking of and I would now believe the obverse to be questionable. Hope to get better pics of the reverse.
Jim

All, is very well > @ifthevamzarockin said:

The N on the reverse indicates a problem, not much need to go further.

The S looks more pronounced than the date, there is a chance for an added or embossed mint mark.

There you are, you've been lurking in the shadows again
Agree, the "N" in UNITED sure looks to have the deep valley "N" don't it.
I zoomed in on it the best I could, at lest its a better size comparison, here is what I got out of that.

Coin in question (OP) top image, second image is a genuine example.

MarkW63

I resized DOWN the genuine example to help with the size comparison some more.

mr1931S

You all see that thing inside the upper loop of the 's' on the OP coin.That's a die chip. This feature would be virtually impossible to counterfeit on an added 's'.This coin appears to be "'s' low right",as seen on p.13 in Detecting Altered Coins, Fifth Edition by Bert Harsche.

mr1931S

My SVDB (sorry, I don't have pictures) 's' is low,far right, as low and far right as these come. One can see the die chip in the 's' without a loupe on my coin. In addition, it has a faint VDB. I call my coin a fine example (PCGS F15) of the 1909-S Lincoln cent that is whispering Victor David Brenner's initials.

MarkW63

I made a better (clearer) picture of the reverse request.
The "N" in UNITED has the narrow cross bar which means its a deep cut valley "N" So, I'd like to see a better picture of the reverse of the coin to get a better look at the designers initials "VDB" I think that would tell the story.
So, now we wait and see what happens!

MsMorrisine

Counterfeit now that I see it again

MarkW63

@mr1874 said:
Looks genuine to me.

Okay, check this information out and then weigh in again (PLEASE)

From the web site!

---

There are two reverse design varieties of the 1909 S. One reverse design is the shallow "N" in the word “UNITED” and the other reverse variety is the Deep N or Deep Cut N in the UNITED. The only time that the VDB initials appear on a San Francisco coin minted in 1909 is in conjunction with the shallow cut N reverse. That is to say that if the coin is a genuine 1909 S VDB, it should also have the shallow cut N reverse. The dies containing the Deep Cut N after the designer's initials were removed from the reverse on coins minted at the San Francisco mint.

The shallow N pickup point is distinguished by looking at the acute angle created by the vertical upright of each N and the diagonal crossbar. Draw an imaginary line at each of these angles perpendicular to the vertical upright. On the Shallow Cut N, the two lines will be very close together. On the Deep Cut N, the lines will have a much wider space. See the picture above to get a good idea of how this looks on the reverse. The Deep Cut N in UNITED does not appear on a real 1909 S VDB.

MarkW63

@MsMorrisine said:
Counterfeit now that I see it again

The "N" in UNITED don't look right!
But, I'm thinking your looking at that reverse leaning "S" mint mark. The only die set that has the mint mark that low is Set #4 but it don't the mint mark should be vertically straight.
I hoping I can get better pictures of the reverse anyway.

Steven59

@mr1874 said:
[You all see that thing inside the upper loop of the 's' on the OP coin.That's a die chip. This feature would be virtually impossible to counterfeit on an added 's'.]

Poster may have gotten the comparison pictures mixed up with the Posters pictures in question. ???????

MarkW63

Seller update!
I got a message reply about getting better pictures,
pretty simple, they write,
"will not be in until Tuesday will try then"