09SVDB #2 for the day! Opinions first please?

MarkW63

Here is some red flags I possibly see, but the pictures are not great, the coin has a fair amount of wear.
The mint mark looks to fat and to curved at the top & bottom! (I've not checked location yet)
The center bar in the "B" in the designers initials appears to straight!
The period following the "V" in the designers initials appears to low!
And then I see what would be a counterfeit die marker IF its in fact that, its location is correct, on the reverse if you look about halfway up the inside line of the Wheat ear there is what looks like a bump?
Opinions PLEASE!

MsMorrisine

Then there’s the huge rims

MarkW63

@MsMorrisine said:
Then there’s the huge rims

Yep! I did see that later after I looked at the pictures some more, especially on the obverse side, MONSTER rims.

mannie gray

95% sure from the images that it's fake but 100% sure I wouldn't buy it.

nwcoast

They’ve even added some verdigris to spice up its credibility.
Or, maybe it’s just be hanging around long enough to have picked it up.
The coin looks OFF to me.
The VDB looks too thick and large.
The letters in Liberty look too thick as well.
Here’s my real one for comparison.

ricko

Yep... That is a fakeroo.... The PUP's are there.... Cheers, RickO

BuffaloIronTail

The "S" is wrong, and so is the "B".

That coin is definitely not for me.

Pete

MarkW63

Okay, sometime back I saw a video where there was a coin expert giving a seminar about the counterfeit world of coins. He covered the problem in general, but included several US coins with obvious counterfeit markers. Of course there was the 09SVDB as one of his examples, I didn't watch the entire thing but I did pickup on this detail. He showed a slide of the reverse of an 09SVDB and pointed to a counterfeit die marker that was about midway up the inside line of the left Wheat ear, a bump, bla....bla.....
Well, I remembered that when I saw the coin in the OP as one possible detail.
So, I just went online and searched for 09SVDB counterfeit die markers and I found the below image that included the added markings (I didn't put them there). But if you look at this image and then compare the other details to the one on the OP like the rather bold VDB and the center bar of the "B" the two coins have the same bloodline (same possible source)

Now in the image below there is several other problems with the coin,
The very top of the Wheat ears (the tips) are rounded and not pointed, that's another counterfeit marker, but the ones in the OP are pointed.
Then the image below is clear enough to see that the "N" in UNITED has deep cut valley's not found on a Genuine 09SVDB
The coin below does have in appearance the same sloppy designers initials with the straight cross bar in the "B"

Now with what we can see and compare to other images who's on the side of the fence of the the coin in the OP being genuine?
Due to the fat totally wrong looking mint mark, and the wrong VDB, I'm on the side of a phony.

AMRC

This assumes there is only one "fake" die. There are multiple ways they are faked. Most start with a real 1909 VDB and add the S, either by attaching or imprinting the S.

MarkW63

@AMRC said:
This assumes there is only one "fake" die. There are multiple ways they are faked. Most start with a real 1909 VDB and add the S, either by attaching or imprinting the S.

When I first started this journey with the 09SVDB I had some trouble wrapping my head around altered (still not genuine) and a total counterfeit. Well, I see that your talking about the most being an altered real coin, like curving away at the number 4 on a 1944-D to make it appear as a 14-D, and adding an "S" to a philly minted 09-VDB boy we found a lot of those
But, with the 09SVDB its known that China has produced coins (coined) using die sets making true counterfeits seeing how they're sold in catalogs STAMPED "COPY" well those same dies produce black marketed versions of the same coin not stamped "COPY"
In that seminar video I watched the spokes person pointed out about that counterfeit die chip marker on the left side Wheat ear, he said the same counterfeiters later after it became known about the die chip fixed the problem with their dies in their later counterfeits. So the counterfeiters do make changes to the dies where coins are "Struck" using dies to try and had or remove known markers.
I saw another video from another expert who stated this, that its likely that there is more altered or counterfeited 09SVDB's then they are the genuine coin and that the 09SVDB is the most counterfeited of all US coins!
Below is my first example I came across that turned out to be a counterfeit, many will say this one looks like a Philly minted 09 VDB with an added "S" mint mark, but! others who have came across this coin's siblings and me finding exact copies of it on ebay will claim that the coin is actually struck using dies in China.
In any case my quest has become one to do what I can to keep these off the market, off ebay, create educational and interesting forum discussions hoping that others can learn from the content.

I personally destroyed the coin above.
But look at the one below, this is one I spotted on ebay some time back. (its not the same coin)

So, the examples above seem to be struck and chemically tone to create an aged appearance. Of all the phony 09SVDB's I've spotted the ones above get my attention the FASTEST, that chemical toning, the wrong designers initials, BOOM! and its called out

Here is chemically toning a copper coin (Round).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eNGde5XmQA

Thank you "ARMC" for you input and your contribution of your time!

MarkW63

No farther action needed with the coin in the OP, its been taken off the for sale market!
Poof! its gone.