Just to cite a few examples, there are conversion apps involved in the bitcoin acceptance, its not direct to Starbucks or Home Depot. BMW does not have a company wide policy, it is select privately owned dealerships.
Venezuela year over year currency inflation is 155%, what do they have to lose? St Kitts and Nevis .......are you kidding me?
Why let a few facts get in the way. Its not becoming widely accepted, not by a long shot.
It's called trajectory and trend. We are early days. Adoption is growing, not shrinking.
Whatever those companies do to accept crypto isn't the point. The point is that those companies felt it was worth being able to offer crypto payment options.
@jmlanzaf said:
I appreciate your efforts, but you might as well be talking to yourself. He's not open-minded enough to consider me information that runs counter to his bias.
Simplest example:
Him: Bitcoin does not act as a currency.
You: It's legal tender in Venezuela.
Him: Venezuela doesn't count.
Oddly, Venezuela didn't count because it's only the 78th largest economy. That must really upset the 130 economies that are smaller than Venezuela to find out that they don't count either.
Thanks jmlanzaf, but to be clear, it's not legal tender in Venezuela. It's an example of a authoritarian regime that is anti-crypto but the people have resorted to crypto and it is a godsend for them. The two countries that I know of where crypto is or will be legal tender is El Salvadore, and St Kitts and Nevis.
Although Bitcoin has been around since 2009, it's only been viable for the common person to use really in the past 5 years while the software tools and technology and infrastructure was developed. But because every country didn't immediately replace their monetary system with it it's a complete failure.
@pmh1nic said:
The movement just got smashed over the last six months.
The movement? Or the price? The price has been "smashed" several times before. Why is this different? Aside from those who lost money and will go broke because of FTX or other fraud, can you name a crypto company that is closing down and throwing in the towel because there's no interest in crypto any more?
Whether you're making the argument (inability of governments to control) is immaterial. The so-called influencers are making that argument.
Then go argue with them.
In the U.S. all taxes are NOT voluntary. Just ask Wesley Snipes. Right now there is voluntary reporting of income in crypto. Other income gets reported to the IRS. And I never said anything about money going into your bank account. I'm talk about crypto on an exchange.
You are correct, I was imprecise with my wording. My point still stands. Are you proposing that gains on crypto be the first type of investment income that is automatically reported to the US government? The government has always relied on citizens to report and pay taxes on their gains, crypto is no different.
You gave an answer but didn't answer the question. Who is the "too many" you are referring to? The number of people and transactions done using crypto is miniscule.
I did answer that. 20-25% of the US population. I suppose you want names?
Do you have a subscription with Financial Times? All I get is a headline saying they invested in a crypto technology company. I see nothing about a "huge investment". Investment in the technology could be an investment in block chain technology (that has other potential uses) not in any particular crypto.
Like I said, you're going to have to do your own research. It's not like you listen to what I say anyway. The big boys are investing in the space, they are hiring in the space, and they are developing in the space. The article was just one example. But believe what you want.
My point is the amount of commerce being done in crypto is miniscule and much of the activity has nothing to do with actual commerce but the highly speculative ponzi scheme.
Adoption WAS growing until the crash and burn that has occurred over the last year. You had a huge surge in 2020-2021 when a ton of new speculators jumped and now a huge drop showing much of the money that flowed into the sector was by those that were not true believers.
It's had surges and drops before. Where you is your evidence that adoption is no longer growing? Or are you just guessing that the price drop has caused adoption to drop?
Edited to add:
It sounds like you might watch a little too much MSNBC. Generally when the media starts talking about how bad an investment sector is, it's always been a great time to buy. When the media starts talking about how great a sector is, it's a good time to sell.
@jmlanzaf said:
Now you are attacking the merits of my pile of 1957 silver certificates. 😀
I've got a small pile, too. But then again, doesn't everybody?
I'd been thinking about redeeming mine tor the silver that is promised on them and found out that the promised silver is worth a politician's promise. Are the later FRN worth anything?
@jmlanzaf said:
Now you are attacking the merits of my pile of 1957 silver certificates. 😀
I've got a small pile, too. But then again, doesn't everybody?
I'd been thinking about redeeming mine tor the silver that is promised on them and found out that the promised silver is worth a politician's promise. Are the later FRN worth anything?
Same politician's promise.
And, of course, the US government enforces the legal tender aspects of FRN.
Just to cite a few examples, there are conversion apps involved in the bitcoin acceptance, its not direct to Starbucks or Home Depot. BMW does not have a company wide policy, it is select privately owned dealerships.
Venezuela year over year currency inflation is 155%, what do they have to lose? St Kitts and Nevis .......are you kidding me?
Why let a few facts get in the way. Its not becoming widely accepted, not by a long shot.
It's called trajectory and trend. We are early days. Adoption is growing, not shrinking.
Whatever those companies do to accept crypto isn't the point. The point is that those companies felt it was worth being able to offer crypto payment options.
@jmlanzaf said:
I appreciate your efforts, but you might as well be talking to yourself. He's not open-minded enough to consider me information that runs counter to his bias.
Simplest example:
Him: Bitcoin does not act as a currency.
You: It's legal tender in Venezuela.
Him: Venezuela doesn't count.
Oddly, Venezuela didn't count because it's only the 78th largest economy. That must really upset the 130 economies that are smaller than Venezuela to find out that they don't count either.
Thanks jmlanzaf, but to be clear, it's not legal tender in Venezuela. It's an example of a authoritarian regime that is anti-crypto but the people have resorted to crypto and it is a godsend for them. The two countries that I know of where crypto is or will be legal tender is El Salvadore, and St Kitts and Nevis.
Yes, of course. Sloppy language in my part. I had posted the link earlier with the countries including El Salvador and the Central African Republic.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
Then maybe St Kitts and Nemis? https://cryptoslate.com/st-kitts-and-nevis-to-adopt-bitcoincash-as-legal-tender-in-2023/
Look, your point is taken, but you should be able to see that this is a movement that is gaining momentum. It starts with the small countries first.
I understand major countries won't ever do it because they can print their own money. If I could print my own money and get people to accept it, I would do that too. I wouldn't ever expect a country to endorse the competition.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. .
Again, go take they argument up with someone who is making that argument, but you can stop saying that it can't be monitored. They can control their fiat money supplies all they want, it won't keep crypto from flourishing.
The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
Yes, in the US, all taxes are voluntary. Go ahead and try not paying them.
And try withdrawing a lot of US dollars from Coinbase to you bank account. You don't think the government doesn't see the money going into your bank account? If you can tell me how I can start avoiding taxes on my crypto grains I would like to know. I had a hefty bill last year.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
To be fair, you wouldn't have the mechanism until you needed the mechanism. Such a mechanism would not be difficult to implement. Many online retailers have already done so.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
Sure, but if I can still make peer-to-peer transactions there's a lot of utility their transaction using crypto?
I said "in possession and use." That doesn't mean they are using it daily. 20-25% of a population is not insignificant and enough to make politicians think twice about taking
There Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
First, you missed the point which is that large companies deal in volatile pricing, assets, etc and have people dedicated to managing this risk and there are tools such as options and futures contracts to allow companies to maintain neutrality. Volatility is not a reason for large companies to avoid dealing in crypto.
I feel like I keep repeating myself, adoption is still growing. I'm not going to go through the Fortune 500 list, but here are some major companies accepting crypto today: YUM brands, Coca Cola, Etsy, Overstock, Restaurant Brands (Burger King, etc), Rakuten, Whole Foods, Virgin Group, Paypal, Starbucks, Home Depot, BMW, Microsoft, AT&T. Is that good enough for you?
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
I have never suggested that crypto will supplant any major currencies. You keep going back to this but I'm not making that argument. It's pretty hard to fight decentralized organizations. Most countries will realize that the best path forward is to embrace it. That doesn't mean that the government will actually use crypto. It will be a successful alternative payment and investment option, but it won't replace any central bank currencies.
I appreciate your efforts, but you might as well be talking to yourself. He's not open-minded enough to consider me information that runs counter to his bias.
Simplest example:
Him: Bitcoin does not act as a currency.
You: It's legal tender in Venezuela.
Him: Venezuela doesn't count.
Oddly, Venezuela didn't count because it's only the 78th largest economy. That must really upset the 130 economies that are smaller than Venezuela to find out that they don't count either.
You missed my point. The proponents of Bitcoin claim the coin is going to take over world commerce. That may not be the argument ProofCollection is making but that is the argument being made by the Bitcoin influencers. That claim is nonsense, you know it and I know it.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE EVER SAID THAT BITCOIN IS GOING TO TAKE OVER. You keep repeating it but most BTC enthusiasts have somewhat more modest goals for cryptocurrencies.
You can keep your krypto. I prefer the old readies.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
@jmlanzaf said:
Now you are attacking the merits of my pile of 1957 silver certificates. 😀
I've got a small pile, too. But then again, doesn't everybody?
I'd been thinking about redeeming mine tor the silver that is promised on them and found out that the promised silver is worth a politician's promise. Are the later FRN worth anything?
Same politician's promise.
And, of course, the US government enforces the legal tender aspects of FRN.
To be fair, if you were around at the time and got in before the deadline, the promise of redemption for silver was honored. I doubt that there will ever be anything like that for FRNs, though.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Too much excitement triggering it or something more sinister going on behind the scenes????
I'm wondering if they scammed someone you really don't want to mess with, folks that can make you disappear.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
The truth remains the same regardless of how many lame arguments are thrown up to try and counter it. The discussion was centered around crypto (Bitcoin) as it is currently structured becoming a major part of commerce. My argument has been it will not and the only digital currency that has a chance of doing that is one that is controlled by the major governments of the world. What people are using to barter with in third world countries on a small scale isn't the issue. The promoters of Bitcoin (a decentralized currency that can't be manipulated by governments) are claiming it is going to be the way of the world. I argue it is not and talking about a gray or black market doesn't change that.
Questions for you. Do you see Bitcoin as it is currently structure becoming the reserve currency of the world? Has the growth in Bitcoin over the last two years been a product of individuals looking to use it as currency or using it as a speculative investment?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
The truth remains the same regardless of how many lame arguments are thrown up to try and counter it. The discussion was centered around crypto (Bitcoin) as it is currently structured becoming a major part of commerce. My argument has been it will not and the only digital currency that has a chance of doing that is one that is controlled by the major governments of the world. What people are using to barter with in third world countries on a small scale isn't the issue. The promoters of Bitcoin (a decentralized currency that can't be manipulated by governments) are claiming it is going to be the way of the world. I argue it is not and talking about a gray or black market doesn't change that.
Questions for you. Do you see Bitcoin as it is currently structure becoming the reserve currency of the world? Has the growth in Bitcoin over the last two years been a product of individuals looking to use it as currency or using it as a speculative investment?
No. Speculative investment.
However, your homework is to spot the flaws in the rest of your thesis. Let me help: there are no "promoters of bitcoin" who all advocate for the same thing. [As has been pointed out to you numerous times. ] See if you can spot the others...I'm betting you can't. Prove me wrong.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
@pmh1nic said:
By backed I mean endorsed and supported by that government. Please don't talk about Venezuela with a $98 billion gdp, 73rd behind Luxemburg. The major economic powers in the world are not going to make Bitcoin their currency of choice.
I thought one of the major selling points of crypto is that it couldn't be monitored. Beyond that governments and banks exercise control over the economy by controlling the money supply. They are NOT giving up that control. The 1040 statement regarding crypto is a taxpayer voluntary statement and not based on federal monitoring of income.
A couple of states suggesting receiving taxes in Bitcoin is just that, a suggestion. I don't see it happening and there is no mechanism in place to allow it to happen.
If you can't use it it has been effectively controlled. If you can't be paid with it, if your SS benefit has to be in dollars, if you can't buy groceries with it, if you can't pay your mortgage and car loan with it's effectively been shutout of wide spread use.
What do you mean by too many people. How many people are using crypto to pay for the daily necessities of life? What percentage of the population is conducting a major portion of their transaction using crypto?
And where did you get the idea that Wall Street wants in? You have a couple of institutional investor talking about it, less in the last few weeks as a result of the FTX fiasco, but there has been no great clamoring on Wall Street to embrace crypto.
There are approximately 106 million individuals that own Bitcoin, 200 million wallets, 53 million Bitcoin traders and 270,000 Bitcoin transaction daily. That is miniscule! In addition it appears many folks have more than one Bitcoin wallet and many of those wallets are owned by traders not by folks using Bitcoin for daily ecommerce.
What I wrote about Fortune 500 companies is not "completely inaccurate". They are not paying their employees in Bitcoin. I seriously doubt any of them are doing international business in Bitcoin. You making a claim about something you do not know. You're guessing. Tesla accepted Bitcoin for about a week and dropped it. Those currencies you mentioned are no where near as volatile as Bitcoin. Give me 50 companies in the Fortune 500 companies (10% of the 500) that are transacting business in Bitcoin.
The U.S. has successfully fought off every attempt to dethrone the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. China is not going to allow a currency to oust the yuan, the Japanese the yen, the Russians the ruble, the EU the Euro or India the rupee. That's better than half the world's total GDP. And these countries have a major influence on what happens in the rest of the world. The 200 million Bitcoin wallets is not even an afterthought when it comes to deciding on what happens next as far as a digital currency is concerned.
You are stuck repeating the same things that he has refuted several times.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
The truth remains the same regardless of how many lame arguments are thrown up to try and counter it. The discussion was centered around crypto (Bitcoin) as it is currently structured becoming a major part of commerce. My argument has been it will not and the only digital currency that has a chance of doing that is one that is controlled by the major governments of the world. What people are using to barter with in third world countries on a small scale isn't the issue. The promoters of Bitcoin (a decentralized currency that can't be manipulated by governments) are claiming it is going to be the way of the world. I argue it is not and talking about a gray or black market doesn't change that.
Questions for you. Do you see Bitcoin as it is currently structure becoming the reserve currency of the world? Has the growth in Bitcoin over the last two years been a product of individuals looking to use it as currency or using it as a speculative investment?
No. Speculative investment.
However, your homework is to spot the flaws in the rest of your thesis. Let me help: there are no "promoters of bitcoin" who all advocate for the same thing. [As has been pointed out to you numerous times. ] See if you can spot the others...I'm betting you can't. Prove me wrong.
As for your answers, both correct.
However your critique of my "thesis" is foundationally flawed. I never said all the promoters of Bitcoin are advocating for the same thing. The major promoters of Bitcoin like Michael Saylor are advocating that Bitcoin replace the major currencies of the world. In his mind Bitcoin is the salvation of the world's economy. In their world cryptocurrency can't be corrupted by government. That would be true IF crypto in the form that they advocate could become the world's reserve currency...but it's not. An element of that control is the control of the supply and flow of money. They are not giving up that control.
I don't know what statistics are available but comment sense tells you that the folks that have jumped in on Bitcoin over the last year haven't done it to use it as a currency. Far too volatile. This increased interest in Bitcoin is about the potential for massive growth. Folks buy low, sell high and exchange that Bitcoin for fiat dollars. It's not being used as currency.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
However your critique of my "thesis" is foundationally flawed. I never said all the promoters of Bitcoin are advocating for the same thing. The major promoters of Bitcoin like Michael Saylor are advocating that Bitcoin replace the major currencies of the world. In his mind Bitcoin is the salvation of the world's economy. In their world cryptocurrency can't be corrupted by government. That would be true IF crypto in the form that they advocate could become the world's reserve currency...but it's not. An element of that control is the control of the supply and flow of money. They are not giving up that control.
Everyone here agrees that Saylor's not correct, so why do you keep bringing up these talking points?
Bitcoin can't be corrupted by governments. They'd have to own over 50% of the supply. Why would Bitcoin have to become the world's reserve currency? Why can't it just be a popular form of global commerce that functions outside of the purview of all governments? Gold would historically fill this role if it weren't so slow, difficult, and expensive to physically transport. Now we have the equivalent that's fast and easy to use.
I don't know what statistics are available but comment sense tells you that the folks that have jumped in on Bitcoin over the last year haven't done it to use it as a currency. Far too volatile. This increased interest in Bitcoin is about the potential for massive growth. Folks buy low, sell high and exchange that Bitcoin for fiat dollars. It's not being used as currency.
I'll agree with all but the last sentence. Just because it's not being used as a currency doesn't mean that it can't be (and by 'not being used' I'm not saying that no one is using it as currency but I'm agreeing that the majority of transactions are related to buy & hold or speculate purposes). Just like 1oz silver rounds aren't currency, they could definitely be used as such. I would never argue that silver rounds or even gold flakes are not. If you watch Gold Rush, you'll see that miners pay for goods and services with gold flakes & nuggets all of the time, which qualifies it as a currency which is by definition a medium of exchange for goods and services. Over the years, I have used crypto as a currency more than two dozen times to buy things other than digital assets or other crypto.
@pmh1nic said:
However your critique of my "thesis" is foundationally flawed. I never said all the promoters of Bitcoin are advocating for the same thing. The major promoters of Bitcoin like Michael Saylor are advocating that Bitcoin replace the major currencies of the world. In his mind Bitcoin is the salvation of the world's economy. In their world cryptocurrency can't be corrupted by government. That would be true IF crypto in the form that they advocate could become the world's reserve currency...but it's not. An element of that control is the control of the supply and flow of money. They are not giving up that control.
Everyone here agrees that Saylor's not correct, so why do you keep bringing up these talking points?
Bitcoin can't be corrupted by governments. They'd have to own over 50% of the supply. Why would Bitcoin have to become the world's reserve currency? Why can't it just be a popular form of global commerce that functions outside of the purview of all governments? Gold would historically fill this role if it weren't so slow, difficult, and expensive to physically transport. Now we have the equivalent that's fast and easy to use.
I don't know what statistics are available but comment sense tells you that the folks that have jumped in on Bitcoin over the last year haven't done it to use it as a currency. Far too volatile. This increased interest in Bitcoin is about the potential for massive growth. Folks buy low, sell high and exchange that Bitcoin for fiat dollars. It's not being used as currency.
I'll agree with all but the last sentence. Just because it's not being used as a currency doesn't mean that it can't be (and by 'not being used' I'm not saying that no one is using it as currency but I'm agreeing that the majority of transactions are related to buy & hold or speculate purposes). Just like 1oz silver rounds aren't currency, they could definitely be used as such. I would never argue that silver rounds or even gold flakes are not. If you watch Gold Rush, you'll see that miners pay for goods and services with gold flakes & nuggets all of the time, which qualifies it as a currency which is by definition a medium of exchange for goods and services. Over the years, I have used crypto as a currency more than two dozen times to buy things other than digital assets or other crypto.
Do you speak for everyone here? Saylor is one of the major influencers promoting Bitcoin as the only viable replace for the dollar. Others pushing the Bitcoin bandwagon are Jack Dorsey and Kevin O'Leary with 101 other influencers that until a week or so ago were pushing it as the next best thing since sliced bread.
While you say Bitcoin can't be corrupted by government that is one of the elements that will prevent it from widespread adoption. If governments can't control and manipulate it it has no chance of becoming a major part of commerce. You do realize the monetary system is rigged. The rigging is done by those in government and titans in business that benefit from that rigging. They control what legislation gets passed. Do you really think they are going to pass legislation that is going to diminish their ability to have control? Or do you think crypto as a grassroots movement is going to wrestle that control from government?
I hope you can get in and out of this ponzi scheme and make some money doing it. But Bitcoin is never going to live up to the hype many (not you) have put forward that it will replace the dollar or any other major world currency. You mentioned using Bitcoin two dozen times. Over what time period? How many other transactions did you do during that timeframe using fiat money? What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
However your critique of my "thesis" is foundationally flawed. I never said all the promoters of Bitcoin are advocating for the same thing. The major promoters of Bitcoin like Michael Saylor are advocating that Bitcoin replace the major currencies of the world. In his mind Bitcoin is the salvation of the world's economy. In their world cryptocurrency can't be corrupted by government. That would be true IF crypto in the form that they advocate could become the world's reserve currency...but it's not. An element of that control is the control of the supply and flow of money. They are not giving up that control.
Everyone here agrees that Saylor's not correct, so why do you keep bringing up these talking points?
Bitcoin can't be corrupted by governments. They'd have to own over 50% of the supply. Why would Bitcoin have to become the world's reserve currency? Why can't it just be a popular form of global commerce that functions outside of the purview of all governments? Gold would historically fill this role if it weren't so slow, difficult, and expensive to physically transport. Now we have the equivalent that's fast and easy to use.
I don't know what statistics are available but comment sense tells you that the folks that have jumped in on Bitcoin over the last year haven't done it to use it as a currency. Far too volatile. This increased interest in Bitcoin is about the potential for massive growth. Folks buy low, sell high and exchange that Bitcoin for fiat dollars. It's not being used as currency.
I'll agree with all but the last sentence. Just because it's not being used as a currency doesn't mean that it can't be (and by 'not being used' I'm not saying that no one is using it as currency but I'm agreeing that the majority of transactions are related to buy & hold or speculate purposes). Just like 1oz silver rounds aren't currency, they could definitely be used as such. I would never argue that silver rounds or even gold flakes are not. If you watch Gold Rush, you'll see that miners pay for goods and services with gold flakes & nuggets all of the time, which qualifies it as a currency which is by definition a medium of exchange for goods and services. Over the years, I have used crypto as a currency more than two dozen times to buy things other than digital assets or other crypto.
Do you speak for everyone here? Saylor is one of the major influencers promoting Bitcoin as the only viable replace for the dollar. Others pushing the Bitcoin bandwagon are Jack Dorsey and Kevin O'Leary with 101 other influencers that until a week or so ago were pushing it as the next best thing since sliced bread.
While you say Bitcoin can't be corrupted by government that is one of the elements that will prevent it from widespread adoption. If governments can't control and manipulate it it has no chance of becoming a major part of commerce. You do realize the monetary system is rigged. The rigging is done by those in government and titans in business that benefit from that rigging. They control what legislation gets passed. Do you really think they are going to pass legislation that is going to diminish their ability to have control? Or do you think crypto as a grassroots movement is going to wrestle that control from government?
I hope you can get in and out of this ponzi scheme and make some money doing it. But Bitcoin is never going to live up to the hype many (not you) have put forward that it will replace the dollar or any other major world currency. You mentioned using Bitcoin two dozen times. Over what time period? How many other transactions did you do during that timeframe using fiat money? What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?
What has happened to your dollar buying power over the last 30 years? 5 years? What has happened to your gold buying power over the last 10 years? You are cherry-picking your data just like you are cherry-picking your bitcoin opinions. How is your pets.com stock doing? How is your amazon.com stock doing over the same period that your pets.com went to zero?
@pmh1nic said:
Do you speak for everyone here? Saylor is one of the major influencers promoting Bitcoin as the only viable replace for the dollar. Others pushing the Bitcoin bandwagon are Jack Dorsey and Kevin O'Leary with 101 other influencers that until a week or so ago were pushing it as the next best thing since sliced bread.
You are the only one espousing these 3 people's talking points. My statement is based on the observation that no one here is defending them while you continue your attack on them.
While you say Bitcoin can't be corrupted by government that is one of the elements that will prevent it from widespread adoption. If governments can't control and manipulate it it has no chance of becoming a major part of commerce. You do realize the monetary system is rigged. The rigging is done by those in government and titans in business that benefit from that rigging. They control what legislation gets passed. Do you really think they are going to pass legislation that is going to diminish their ability to have control? Or do you think crypto as a grassroots movement is going to wrestle that control from government?
The barter economy has always existed under every government in every country. It cannot be controlled. Bitcoin facilitates and expands a barter economy. Barter economies are more prevalent under certain governments and certain economies which is why we are not used to seeing much of it here in the US. Just like barter is peer-to-peer and can't be controlled, monitored, or stopped, so is Bitcoin. Do you get it now? Just like the government in any country cannot stop me from swapping a silver eagle for 10 loaves of bread, a government cannot stop the payment of .001875 bitcoin for 10 loaves of bread.
I hope you can get in and out of this ponzi scheme and make some money doing it. But Bitcoin is never going to live up to the hype many (not you) have put forward that it will replace the dollar or any other major world currency. You mentioned using Bitcoin two dozen times. Over what time period? How many other transactions did you do during that timeframe using fiat money? What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?
Does it matter over what timeframe? Of course 99% of my transactions are in fiat denomination, mostly through my a third party service like Visa and Mastercard who has taken nearly 3% of every transaction.
Your last question does not merit a response. We can cherry pick time frames all day long. The DOGE I bought a few days ago is now up about 20%. Don't suppose you want to talk about that?
@pmh1nic said:
However your critique of my "thesis" is foundationally flawed. I never said all the promoters of Bitcoin are advocating for the same thing. The major promoters of Bitcoin like Michael Saylor are advocating that Bitcoin replace the major currencies of the world. In his mind Bitcoin is the salvation of the world's economy. In their world cryptocurrency can't be corrupted by government. That would be true IF crypto in the form that they advocate could become the world's reserve currency...but it's not. An element of that control is the control of the supply and flow of money. They are not giving up that control.
Everyone here agrees that Saylor's not correct, so why do you keep bringing up these talking points?
Bitcoin can't be corrupted by governments. They'd have to own over 50% of the supply. Why would Bitcoin have to become the world's reserve currency? Why can't it just be a popular form of global commerce that functions outside of the purview of all governments? Gold would historically fill this role if it weren't so slow, difficult, and expensive to physically transport. Now we have the equivalent that's fast and easy to use.
I don't know what statistics are available but comment sense tells you that the folks that have jumped in on Bitcoin over the last year haven't done it to use it as a currency. Far too volatile. This increased interest in Bitcoin is about the potential for massive growth. Folks buy low, sell high and exchange that Bitcoin for fiat dollars. It's not being used as currency.
I'll agree with all but the last sentence. Just because it's not being used as a currency doesn't mean that it can't be (and by 'not being used' I'm not saying that no one is using it as currency but I'm agreeing that the majority of transactions are related to buy & hold or speculate purposes). Just like 1oz silver rounds aren't currency, they could definitely be used as such. I would never argue that silver rounds or even gold flakes are not. If you watch Gold Rush, you'll see that miners pay for goods and services with gold flakes & nuggets all of the time, which qualifies it as a currency which is by definition a medium of exchange for goods and services. Over the years, I have used crypto as a currency more than two dozen times to buy things other than digital assets or other crypto.
Do you speak for everyone here? Saylor is one of the major influencers promoting Bitcoin as the only viable replace for the dollar. Others pushing the Bitcoin bandwagon are Jack Dorsey and Kevin O'Leary with 101 other influencers that until a week or so ago were pushing it as the next best thing since sliced bread.
While you say Bitcoin can't be corrupted by government that is one of the elements that will prevent it from widespread adoption. If governments can't control and manipulate it it has no chance of becoming a major part of commerce. You do realize the monetary system is rigged. The rigging is done by those in government and titans in business that benefit from that rigging. They control what legislation gets passed. Do you really think they are going to pass legislation that is going to diminish their ability to have control? Or do you think crypto as a grassroots movement is going to wrestle that control from government?
I hope you can get in and out of this ponzi scheme and make some money doing it. But Bitcoin is never going to live up to the hype many (not you) have put forward that it will replace the dollar or any other major world currency. You mentioned using Bitcoin two dozen times. Over what time period? How many other transactions did you do during that timeframe using fiat money? What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?
What has happened to your dollar buying power over the last 30 years? 5 years? What has happened to your gold buying power over the last 10 years? You are cherry-picking your data just like you are cherry-picking your bitcoin opinions. How is your pets.com stock doing? How is your amazon.com stock doing over the same period that your pets.com went to zero?
Nothing I've said had anything to do with a comparison of Bitcoin and gold (focus old man). As for the dollar, over the last 30 years, it has lost buying power (approximately 50%). Bitcoin has lost 50% of its buying power OVER THE LAST YEAR! I don't own any Amazon stock.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Do you speak for everyone here? Saylor is one of the major influencers promoting Bitcoin as the only viable replace for the dollar. Others pushing the Bitcoin bandwagon are Jack Dorsey and Kevin O'Leary with 101 other influencers that until a week or so ago were pushing it as the next best thing since sliced bread.
You are the only one espousing these 3 people's talking points. My statement is based on the observation that no one here is defending them while you continue your attack on them.
While you say Bitcoin can't be corrupted by government that is one of the elements that will prevent it from widespread adoption. If governments can't control and manipulate it it has no chance of becoming a major part of commerce. You do realize the monetary system is rigged. The rigging is done by those in government and titans in business that benefit from that rigging. They control what legislation gets passed. Do you really think they are going to pass legislation that is going to diminish their ability to have control? Or do you think crypto as a grassroots movement is going to wrestle that control from government?
The barter economy has always existed under every government in every country. It cannot be controlled. Bitcoin facilitates and expands a barter economy. Barter economies are more prevalent under certain governments and certain economies which is why we are not used to seeing much of it here in the US. Just like barter is peer-to-peer and can't be controlled, monitored, or stopped, so is Bitcoin. Do you get it now? Just like the government in any country cannot stop me from swapping a silver eagle for 10 loaves of bread, a government cannot stop the payment of .001875 bitcoin for 10 loaves of bread.
I hope you can get in and out of this ponzi scheme and make some money doing it. But Bitcoin is never going to live up to the hype many (not you) have put forward that it will replace the dollar or any other major world currency. You mentioned using Bitcoin two dozen times. Over what time period? How many other transactions did you do during that timeframe using fiat money? What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?
Does it matter over what timeframe? Of course 99% of my transactions are in fiat denomination, mostly through my a third party service like Visa and Mastercard who has taken nearly 3% of every transaction.
Your last question does not merit a response. We can cherry pick time frames all day long. The DOGE I bought a few days ago is now up about 20%. Don't suppose you want to talk about that?
It's not three people talking points. And I really don't think anyone other than you and me are interested in the discussion. It's been a repeat of the same "talking points" for a while now.
Yes, bartering has exist for all of human history but it has increasing become a smaller and smaller part of commerce. But that's not the primary issue. Your claim is that bartering using Bitcoin is going to become a significant factor in commerce. I don't agree because I don't think the powers that be are going to allow it to be a significant factor as it is currently structure. There will be a digital currency BUT it will be one that is controlled AND potentially manipulated by those powers that be.
I get what you're saying and I'm saying if you think this bartering with Bitcoin is going to become a significant form of exchange I think you're wrong. It's certainly not going to happen in the U.S. (forgive my U.S.centric attitude) or Europe or China or Russia or any other place where government have had control over currency and commerce.
Yes, it matters over what timeframe becomes timeframe impacts the volume of transactions. If it's small scale the governments of the world may not care. If it becomes significant the more likely they will look to shut it down. And of course you want to avoid a discussion of timeframes because it is central to my argument. Again, the government doesn't care about your 10 loafs of bread (approximately 20 billion loafs of bread sold in the U.S. each year). But let it become a significant percentage of the bread sold in the U.S. and the government will care. So a discussion of timeframes isn't cherry picking, it's central to the discussion. If it's 12 transactions per year nobody cares. If it's 12 transactions every microsecond someone will start to care.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
i've been wanting to ask for a while, so here goes.
any of you well-versed in crypto/nft/blockchain etc, know of any service/game/artist etc that has made over 1,000,000 of one specific nft for their project?
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i've been wanting to ask for a while, so here goes.
any of you well-versed in crypto/nft/blockchain etc, know of any service/game/artist etc that has made over 1,000,000 of one specific nft for their project?
May not specifically answer your query with a name but the following article has interesting snippets
@pmh1nic said:
It's not three people talking points. And I really don't think anyone other than you and me are interested in the discussion. It's been a repeat of the same "talking points" for a while now.
Because you keep repeating these three people's talking points, as if reminding us of some of the crypto-bug talking points supports your arguments.
Yes, bartering has exist for all of human history but it has increasing become a smaller and smaller part of commerce. But that's not the primary issue. Your claim is that bartering using Bitcoin is going to become a significant factor in commerce. I don't agree because I don't think the powers that be are going to allow it to be a significant factor as it is currently structure. There will be a digital currency BUT it will be one that is controlled AND potentially manipulated by those powers that be.
We can disagree about the future size of barter economies using crypto as neither of us know the future. But the fact remains that "the powers that be" have never been able to effectively control barter economies. Why would TPTB be more successful at controlling barter economies now or in the future?
I get what you're saying and I'm saying if you think this bartering with Bitcoin is going to become a significant form of exchange I think you're wrong. It's certainly not going to happen in the U.S. (forgive my U.S.centric attitude) or Europe or China or Russia or any other place where government have had control over currency and commerce.
The size of the crypto bartering economy will be a function of the stability of the country's banking system and services and the supply chain. Naturally demand will be lowest in a place like the US where these systems are robust and reliable.
And the non-barter crypto economy will grow as customers continue to demand crypto payment options and businesses see benefit in offering more forms of payment and avoiding the 3% take from the credit card companies and banks. There's a reason why Paypal added crypto capabilities. Amazon is working on it as we speak. Facebook will be integrating crypto capabilities in the near future as well. City, state, and US government don't care about the medium of exchange as long as they get their cut, which they will, even with crypto.
Yes, it matters over what timeframe becomes timeframe impacts the volume of transactions. If it's small scale the governments of the world may not care. If it becomes significant the more likely they will look to shut it down. And of course you want to avoid a discussion of timeframes because it is central to my argument. Again, the government doesn't care about your 10 loafs of bread (approximately 20 billion loafs of bread sold in the U.S. each year). But let it become a significant percentage of the bread sold in the U.S. and the government will care. So a discussion of timeframes isn't cherry picking, it's central to the discussion. If it's 12 transactions per year nobody cares. If it's 12 transactions every microsecond someone will start to care.
You completely missed the timeframes argument which was not about transaction volume. You asked, "What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?" But you didn't ask, what has happened to your bitcoin buying power over the last 3 years which would have a much different answer.
Governments won't care how much transaction volume there is as long as they get their cut.
Now, the CEO of BlackRock, the world’s largest asset manager with around $8 trillion in assets under management that signed a major deal with Coinbase earlier this year, has predicted crypto's blockchain technology will usher in "the next generation for markets."
"I actually believe this technology is going to be very important," Fink said. "Think about instantaneous settlement [of] bonds and stocks, no middlemen, we’re going to bring down fees even more dramatically. Think about it. It changes the whole ecosystem."
So you can argue that the CEO of Blackrock is wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about, or maybe, just maybe, people should pay attention to what Wall St is doing and saying.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i've been wanting to ask for a while, so here goes.
any of you well-versed in crypto/nft/blockchain etc, know of any service/game/artist etc that has made over 1,000,000 of one specific nft for their project?
I'm not sure what application would warrant creating NFTs in that kind of volume. As each NFT should (by definition) have a unique quality to it, even if just a serial number, there really is no point in issuing a million NFTs. If they are all essentially the same it would be more efficient just to create 1M fungible tokens. The exception might be a large game system like Minecraft in which there may be 1M instances of a particular weapon or item in the game, but there would still probably be no need to distinguish item #1 from item #1M if they are all the same. I don't follow the NFT space closely as many aspects of it truly are a ponzi scheme, although there are some legitimate and useful NFT applications.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i've been wanting to ask for a while, so here goes.
any of you well-versed in crypto/nft/blockchain etc, know of any service/game/artist etc that has made over 1,000,000 of one specific nft for their project?
I'm not sure what application would warrant creating NFTs in that kind of volume. As each NFT should (by definition) have a unique quality to it, even if just a serial number, there really is no point in issuing a million NFTs. If they are all essentially the same it would be more efficient just to create 1M fungible tokens. The exception might be a large game system like Minecraft in which there may be 1M instances of a particular weapon or item in the game, but there would still probably be no need to distinguish item #1 from item #1M if they are all the same. I don't follow the NFT space closely as many aspects of it truly are a ponzi scheme, although there are some legitimate and useful NFT applications.
ya, i actually have some thing(s) in mind and they aren't normal projects. you nailed it. they are "games" and some games that were created right before the big fall/winter crypto pump that went to the end of the year and a bit after. right when supposedly either china/japan, i don't recall, "banned" BTC.
one "game" in particular has one nft, that is used to purchase other nfts in-game, sort of like coins in PS/XBOX/PC games, where you get millions or billinos of coins and can exchange them out for other things.
i'm not going to say the number of the nft i have in mind, just yet. i kinda wanna see what others know about or can come up with. since it costs to create 7+ figures of nfts, they are going to HAVE to be well-funded/successful projects. probably in the 8/9/10 figure range. (gross, not net income)
edited to add: the nfts i know of that are created in HUUUUGE volume, over time, do usually get burned.
I used three individuals as examples but here are many more promoting Bitcoin as either a speculative investment or a form of currency.
The tendency is for governments to exercise more not less control over commerce. The move to digital currency is a move toward more control and monitoring.
If you're arguing Bitcoin as currency what has happened over the last six months is critical. Beyond that if Bitcoin is attempting to prove its value as a long term source of wealth a 50% drop in six months is not a good sign.
The technology is a separate issue. There are many applications for blockchain technology beyond cryptocurrencies.
The main point is Bitcoin absent the government's ability to control it is not going to fly as far as becoming a major factor in commerce. The major governments are not going to give up control of monetary policy, period end of story.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@taxbuster1040 said:
So I have been collecting coins since I was a little boy.... now 71. I just can't understand what looks like a mania with the crypto currency market. To me, someone who like holding coins in my hands, I just think this won't end well for some. So I am asking you how many of you are buying ANY crypto currencies? what do you think of them?
I haven't read all these posts. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say; if you're reading this, the game is rigged and the deck is stacked against you!.. You can take that to the bank! If you did take it to the bank, you better check your account!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@taxbuster1040 said:
I just think this won't end well for some.
.
you got it right. it has ALREADY not ended well for many to the tune of many billions of dollars.
yesterday's ponzi schemes seem like a disney park ride compared to the mismanagement/hacks/thefts/lies etc in the crypto/nft etc space, including with MANY recognizable and reputable names intermingled from all facets of life and from all over the world.
@pmh1nic said:
I used three individuals as examples but here are many more promoting Bitcoin as either a speculative investment or a form of currency.
Again, not sure why we keep talking about what these promoters are saying. It's not clear how seriously anyone takes what they say and no one here seems to be defending their hype.
The tendency is for governments to exercise more not less control over commerce. The move to digital currency is a move toward more control and monitoring.
I assume you're talking about CBDCs in which case I agree.
If you're arguing Bitcoin as currency what has happened over the last six months is critical. Beyond that if Bitcoin is attempting to prove its value as a long term source of wealth a 50% drop in six months is not a good sign.
It is early days my friend. Things will be rough in the beginning and smooth out as adoption grows and spreads and as institutions get involved and there are more derivatives and other mechanisms available.
The technology is a separate issue. There are many applications for blockchain technology beyond cryptocurrencies.
Definitely.
The main point is Bitcoin absent the government's ability to control it is not going to fly as far as becoming a major factor in commerce. The major governments are not going to give up control of monetary policy, period end of story.
They don't have to control it. Alternative forms of commerce will prevail as they always have. As long as the government gets its taxes they shouldn't much care how I buy a hamburger.
@OAKSTAR said:
I haven't read all these posts. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say; if you're reading this, the game is rigged and the deck is stacked against you!.. You can take that to the bank! If you did take it to the bank, you better check your account!
That's true everywhere. The coin bourse, the stock market, the real estate market, and yes crypto too. It's a game of information and the individual peon usually does not have the best information.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
yesterday's ponzi schemes seem like a disney park ride compared to the mismanagement/hacks/thefts/lies etc in the crypto/nft etc space, including with MANY recognizable and reputable names intermingled from all facets of life and from all over the world.
It's probably a naive position if the contention is that the world has seen its last billion dollar ponzi scheme in the traditional financial markets as well. There are fraudsters everywhere and they will use whatever opportunities they can find.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
yesterday's ponzi schemes seem like a disney park ride compared to the mismanagement/hacks/thefts/lies etc in the crypto/nft etc space, including with MANY recognizable and reputable names intermingled from all facets of life and from all over the world.
It's probably a naive position if the contention is that the world has seen its last billion dollar ponzi scheme in the traditional financial markets as well. There are fraudsters everywhere and they will use whatever opportunities they can find.
no contention here. it has been, is and will be the same crap from people for legit and illegitimate reasons. those are just the parameters we have to work with all things considered. doesn't make it ok but one must be pragmatic simultaneously. it is probably a great time for the standard ponzi with everyone's bum sore from the crypto beating. when times are tough, crime proliferates. ponzi's are classic and the classics never die...
@pmh1nic said:
I used three individuals as examples but here are many more promoting Bitcoin as either a speculative investment or a form of currency.
Again, not sure why we keep talking about what these promoters are saying. It's not clear how seriously anyone takes what they say and no one here seems to be defending their hype.
The tendency is for governments to exercise more not less control over commerce. The move to digital currency is a move toward more control and monitoring.
I assume you're talking about CBDCs in which case I agree.
If you're arguing Bitcoin as currency what has happened over the last six months is critical. Beyond that if Bitcoin is attempting to prove its value as a long term source of wealth a 50% drop in six months is not a good sign.
It is early days my friend. Things will be rough in the beginning and smooth out as adoption grows and spreads and as institutions get involved and there are more derivatives and other mechanisms available.
The technology is a separate issue. There are many applications for blockchain technology beyond cryptocurrencies.
Definitely.
The main point is Bitcoin absent the government's ability to control it is not going to fly as far as becoming a major factor in commerce. The major governments are not going to give up control of monetary policy, period end of story.
They don't have to control it. Alternative forms of commerce will prevail as they always have. As long as the government gets its taxes they shouldn't much care how I buy a hamburger.
@OAKSTAR said:
I haven't read all these posts. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say; if you're reading this, the game is rigged and the deck is stacked against you!.. You can take that to the bank! If you did take it to the bank, you better check your account!
That's true everywhere. The coin bourse, the stock market, the real estate market, and yes crypto too. It's a game of information and the individual peon usually does not have the best information.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
yesterday's ponzi schemes seem like a disney park ride compared to the mismanagement/hacks/thefts/lies etc in the crypto/nft etc space, including with MANY recognizable and reputable names intermingled from all facets of life and from all over the world.
It's probably a naive position if the contention is that the world has seen its last billion dollar ponzi scheme in the traditional financial markets as well. There are fraudsters everywhere and they will use whatever opportunities they can find.
How serious they are isn't for me to judge. The fact is there are many of them who promote themselves as in the know, that have convinced many to put their money in Bitcoin claiming it's a great investment and/or solid long-term store of wealth. Many of those folks have gotten burned and some burned badly.
I'm talking about anything that will have a significant place in commerce. Governments are not going to give up control of their money making machine. It's the fuel that keeps the machine operating and nothing is going to interrupt their ability to control it whether it's Bitcoin or anything else.
It's early and we're already seeing the clamoring for government control. A tremendous amount of damage was done by SBF and his team of scammers.
Question for you. Why did so many folks go to an exchange rather than manage their own wallets?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Question for you. Why did so many folks go to an exchange rather than manage their own wallets?
.
tbh, the whole process with nft/crypto does require some know-how, including creating, managing and securing a wallet.
so lack of knowledge and convenience are probably the top 2 answers.
there are some pretty nasty horror stories of people losing their info and having their funds locked in wallets. i've seen it idk, at the very least multiples of dozens of times.
there are some benefits to using exchanges, if you are referring to coinbase, gemini, binance, kucoin etc. but obviously, serious inherent risk.
@pmh1nic said:
How serious they are isn't for me to judge. The fact is there are many of them who promote themselves as in the know, that have convinced many to put their money in Bitcoin claiming it's a great investment and/or solid long-term store of wealth. Many of those folks have gotten burned and some burned badly.
And the home shopping network and other TV shopping channels (and newspaper ads) promote terrible overpriced coin investments as well, but most on this board do not dwell on what those hucksters are promoting despite the people who buy that stuff also getting burned. Instead we dismiss what they say and make fun of them, which is what you should do too.
I'm talking about anything that will have a significant place in commerce. Governments are not going to give up control of their money making machine. It's the fuel that keeps the machine operating and nothing is going to interrupt their ability to control it whether it's Bitcoin or anything else.
Bitcoin can be a prevalant alternative payment system and governments don't have to give up control of their money printing machines, both of these statements can be true. Since each government decides what forms of payment to accept for payment of taxes, your last statement (nothing is going to interrupt...) is undeniable.
It's early and we're already seeing the clamoring for government control. A tremendous amount of damage was done by SBF and his team of scammers.
Government control of that which cannot be controlled (decentralized crypto-currency)? People will always clamor for a nanny state to keep us from making bad decisions and hurting ourselves, but I don't want to live in that world. This entertaining 2m video dropped today and explains this brilliantly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWc6DOYQPbU
Question for you. Why did so many folks go to an exchange rather than manage their own wallets?
@LanceNewmanOCC answered this perfectly. As technology evolves we all need to adapt and learn new skills, such as how to keep our online information safe, how to not fall for phishing emails and scams, etc. Just like there is a little bit of learning how to protect the federal reserve notes in your wallet from being misplaced or stolen, there is effort for digital assets too. Some people embrace this more than others. Some take the risks of keeping assets on a foreign exchange more seriously than others. You can take the view that we need government to keep us from hurting ourselves or you can side with personal responsibility and Darwin.
@pmh1nic said:
Question for you. Why did so many folks go to an exchange rather than manage their own wallets?
.
tbh, the whole process with nft/crypto does require some know-how, including creating, managing and securing a wallet.
so lack of knowledge and convenience are probably the top 2 answers.
there are some pretty nasty horror stories of people losing their info and having their funds locked in wallets. i've seen it idk, at the very least multiples of dozens of times.
there are some benefits to using exchanges, if you are referring to coinbase, gemini, binance, kucoin etc. but obviously, serious inherent risk.
Agree. Convenience is a critical factor in getting folks to adapt to a new system. Add a few horror stories of folks unable to retrieve their funds or the horror stories of an SBF (goes well beyond FTX) and I think you have enough to drive most folks away from a system that isn't perceived as convenient or safe.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Agree. Convenience is a critical factor in getting folks to adapt to a new system. Add a few horror stories of folks unable to retrieve their funds or the horror stories of an SBF (goes well beyond FTX) and I think you have enough to drive most folks away from a system that isn't perceived as convenient or safe.
Um, Cryptocurrency is about as convenient as it gets for sending money to someone, particularly tiny or large amounts.
The traditional banking system has driven me away with its fees, delays, and restrictions. Very inconvenient. I feel the funds in my crypto wallet are safer than the dollar bills in my safe at home or in the wallet I carry. I would definitely feel safer using crypto to make a transaction from anywhere with internet access and not having to carry large amounts of fiat around.
The US Dollar is the currency of choice throughout the world. Perhaps there is an alternative world willing to embrace what Crypto has to offer until it fails to meet expectations...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Comments
It's called trajectory and trend. We are early days. Adoption is growing, not shrinking.
Whatever those companies do to accept crypto isn't the point. The point is that those companies felt it was worth being able to offer crypto payment options.
Thanks jmlanzaf, but to be clear, it's not legal tender in Venezuela. It's an example of a authoritarian regime that is anti-crypto but the people have resorted to crypto and it is a godsend for them. The two countries that I know of where crypto is or will be legal tender is El Salvadore, and St Kitts and Nevis.
Although Bitcoin has been around since 2009, it's only been viable for the common person to use really in the past 5 years while the software tools and technology and infrastructure was developed. But because every country didn't immediately replace their monetary system with it it's a complete failure.
The movement? Or the price? The price has been "smashed" several times before. Why is this different? Aside from those who lost money and will go broke because of FTX or other fraud, can you name a crypto company that is closing down and throwing in the towel because there's no interest in crypto any more?
Then go argue with them.
You are correct, I was imprecise with my wording. My point still stands. Are you proposing that gains on crypto be the first type of investment income that is automatically reported to the US government? The government has always relied on citizens to report and pay taxes on their gains, crypto is no different.
I did answer that. 20-25% of the US population. I suppose you want names?
Like I said, you're going to have to do your own research. It's not like you listen to what I say anyway. The big boys are investing in the space, they are hiring in the space, and they are developing in the space. The article was just one example. But believe what you want.
It's had surges and drops before. Where you is your evidence that adoption is no longer growing? Or are you just guessing that the price drop has caused adoption to drop?
Edited to add:
It sounds like you might watch a little too much MSNBC. Generally when the media starts talking about how bad an investment sector is, it's always been a great time to buy. When the media starts talking about how great a sector is, it's a good time to sell.
I'd been thinking about redeeming mine tor the silver that is promised on them and found out that the promised silver is worth a politician's promise. Are the later FRN worth anything?
Same politician's promise.
And, of course, the US government enforces the legal tender aspects of FRN.
Yes, of course. Sloppy language in my part. I had posted the link earlier with the countries including El Salvador and the Central African Republic.
I'm repeating the same things because he keeps making the same argument. His argument is fundamentally flawed. There is not going to be a huge level of commerce being done outside government control and that means government control to manipulate the currency to its advantage.
You missed my point. The proponents of Bitcoin claim the coin is going to take over world commerce. That may not be the argument ProofCollection is making but that is the argument being made by the Bitcoin influencers. That claim is nonsense, you know it and I know it.
You underestimate how large the "cash economy" is in the US and around the world. There is a HUGE level of commerce being done outside government control now.
VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE EVER SAID THAT BITCOIN IS GOING TO TAKE OVER. You keep repeating it but most BTC enthusiasts have somewhat more modest goals for cryptocurrencies.
You can keep your krypto. I prefer the old readies.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
BlockFi owes the SEC 30M.
That should help speed the regulatory process.
To be fair, if you were around at the time and got in before the deadline, the promise of redemption for silver was honored. I doubt that there will ever be anything like that for FRNs, though.
Them honchos be dropping like flies.
Cryptocurrency co-founder Tiantian Kullander dies 'unexpectedly' aged 30 - weeks after another digital money millionaire drowned on Puerto Rico beach
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11476977/Cryptocurrency-founder-Tiantian-Kullander-dies-unexpectedly-aged-30.html
A Stablecoin Innovator and MakerDAO Co-Founder Found Dead in Puerto
https://www.thecoinrepublic.com/2022/11/02/a-stablecoin-innovator-and-makerdao-co-founder-found-dead-in-puerto/
Too much excitement triggering it or something more sinister going on behind the scenes????
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
The cash economy is shrinking. I have a friend that ran a successful tool sales and repair shop (just retired after 40 years in business). He said 40 years ago everything was paid for in cash. Today someone comes in to buy a $10 or less item and the pull out a credit or debit card. I go into 7-11 to buy a cup of coffee and the person ahead of my pays for their coffee with a debit card (I still pay cash). This is anecdotal evidence but I think it is correct regarding the trend from cash to digital, digital that is not related to crypto.
Beyond that the processing time to purchase with Bitcoin is ~10 minutes. There would be a riot at 7-11 if people had to wait 10 minutes to pay for their coffee.
I'm wondering if they scammed someone you really don't want to mess with, folks that can make you disappear.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the cash economy. There are people who have no credit cards, no bank accounts and only deal in cash. They are completely off the radar.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big-underground-economy-america.asp
https://wol.iza.org/articles/shadow-economy-in-industrial-countries/long
Yes, there are people with no credit cards or bank account, folks under 16 years old and non-productive adults. What personage of economic activity does that cover? The article takes a guess at 12%. A guess! Yes, it MAY play a role in other countries but if they are using cash or bartering with bushels of wheat I seriously doubt they are interested in creating a Bitcoin wallet on the web to do most of their transactions.
I never said ANYTHING about BTC, my obsessive compulsive friend. I mentioned this cash economy - approximately 10% of GDP - in response to your claims (without proof) that AND I QUOTE "there is not going to be a huge amount of commerce being done outside government control". The existence of the cash economy proves that there ALREADY IS.
Try to stay on topic my friend with ADHD. The discussion of currency and modes of exchange is centered around crypto currencies. The issue isn't all commerce (exchanges of seashells for coffee) but the vast majority of commerce. It isn't being done with cash or bartering of wheat and whoever is doing commerce with cash and bartering isn't looking for a crypto wallet to continue functioning which requires the buyer and seller to have a wallet.
As soon as governments identify an alternate means of commerce that begins to account for a significant amount of commerce they will be looking for a way to control it.
You're repeating yourself again, despite numerous counter arguments to your flawed thesis.
The truth remains the same regardless of how many lame arguments are thrown up to try and counter it. The discussion was centered around crypto (Bitcoin) as it is currently structured becoming a major part of commerce. My argument has been it will not and the only digital currency that has a chance of doing that is one that is controlled by the major governments of the world. What people are using to barter with in third world countries on a small scale isn't the issue. The promoters of Bitcoin (a decentralized currency that can't be manipulated by governments) are claiming it is going to be the way of the world. I argue it is not and talking about a gray or black market doesn't change that.
Questions for you. Do you see Bitcoin as it is currently structure becoming the reserve currency of the world? Has the growth in Bitcoin over the last two years been a product of individuals looking to use it as currency or using it as a speculative investment?
No. Speculative investment.
However, your homework is to spot the flaws in the rest of your thesis. Let me help: there are no "promoters of bitcoin" who all advocate for the same thing. [As has been pointed out to you numerous times. ] See if you can spot the others...I'm betting you can't. Prove me wrong.
Crypto is not for me either.
But I am drawn to one type of Crypto currency..................
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
As for your answers, both correct.
However your critique of my "thesis" is foundationally flawed. I never said all the promoters of Bitcoin are advocating for the same thing. The major promoters of Bitcoin like Michael Saylor are advocating that Bitcoin replace the major currencies of the world. In his mind Bitcoin is the salvation of the world's economy. In their world cryptocurrency can't be corrupted by government. That would be true IF crypto in the form that they advocate could become the world's reserve currency...but it's not. An element of that control is the control of the supply and flow of money. They are not giving up that control.
I don't know what statistics are available but comment sense tells you that the folks that have jumped in on Bitcoin over the last year haven't done it to use it as a currency. Far too volatile. This increased interest in Bitcoin is about the potential for massive growth. Folks buy low, sell high and exchange that Bitcoin for fiat dollars. It's not being used as currency.
Yup.
Incidentally Tiantian was the third major crypto guy found dead and seems plausible.
Add to it the losses after the bank run of Credit Suisse.
https://www.investing.com/analysis/credit-suisse-estimates-16b-loss-after-883b-withdrawn-in-bank-run-200632713
We are in for some major rollercoaster ride.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Everyone here agrees that Saylor's not correct, so why do you keep bringing up these talking points?
Bitcoin can't be corrupted by governments. They'd have to own over 50% of the supply. Why would Bitcoin have to become the world's reserve currency? Why can't it just be a popular form of global commerce that functions outside of the purview of all governments? Gold would historically fill this role if it weren't so slow, difficult, and expensive to physically transport. Now we have the equivalent that's fast and easy to use.
I'll agree with all but the last sentence. Just because it's not being used as a currency doesn't mean that it can't be (and by 'not being used' I'm not saying that no one is using it as currency but I'm agreeing that the majority of transactions are related to buy & hold or speculate purposes). Just like 1oz silver rounds aren't currency, they could definitely be used as such. I would never argue that silver rounds or even gold flakes are not. If you watch Gold Rush, you'll see that miners pay for goods and services with gold flakes & nuggets all of the time, which qualifies it as a currency which is by definition a medium of exchange for goods and services. Over the years, I have used crypto as a currency more than two dozen times to buy things other than digital assets or other crypto.
Do you speak for everyone here? Saylor is one of the major influencers promoting Bitcoin as the only viable replace for the dollar. Others pushing the Bitcoin bandwagon are Jack Dorsey and Kevin O'Leary with 101 other influencers that until a week or so ago were pushing it as the next best thing since sliced bread.
While you say Bitcoin can't be corrupted by government that is one of the elements that will prevent it from widespread adoption. If governments can't control and manipulate it it has no chance of becoming a major part of commerce. You do realize the monetary system is rigged. The rigging is done by those in government and titans in business that benefit from that rigging. They control what legislation gets passed. Do you really think they are going to pass legislation that is going to diminish their ability to have control? Or do you think crypto as a grassroots movement is going to wrestle that control from government?
I hope you can get in and out of this ponzi scheme and make some money doing it. But Bitcoin is never going to live up to the hype many (not you) have put forward that it will replace the dollar or any other major world currency. You mentioned using Bitcoin two dozen times. Over what time period? How many other transactions did you do during that timeframe using fiat money? What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?
What has happened to your dollar buying power over the last 30 years? 5 years? What has happened to your gold buying power over the last 10 years? You are cherry-picking your data just like you are cherry-picking your bitcoin opinions. How is your pets.com stock doing? How is your amazon.com stock doing over the same period that your pets.com went to zero?
You are the only one espousing these 3 people's talking points. My statement is based on the observation that no one here is defending them while you continue your attack on them.
The barter economy has always existed under every government in every country. It cannot be controlled. Bitcoin facilitates and expands a barter economy. Barter economies are more prevalent under certain governments and certain economies which is why we are not used to seeing much of it here in the US. Just like barter is peer-to-peer and can't be controlled, monitored, or stopped, so is Bitcoin. Do you get it now? Just like the government in any country cannot stop me from swapping a silver eagle for 10 loaves of bread, a government cannot stop the payment of .001875 bitcoin for 10 loaves of bread.
Does it matter over what timeframe? Of course 99% of my transactions are in fiat denomination, mostly through my a third party service like Visa and Mastercard who has taken nearly 3% of every transaction.
Your last question does not merit a response. We can cherry pick time frames all day long. The DOGE I bought a few days ago is now up about 20%. Don't suppose you want to talk about that?
Nothing I've said had anything to do with a comparison of Bitcoin and gold (focus old man). As for the dollar, over the last 30 years, it has lost buying power (approximately 50%). Bitcoin has lost 50% of its buying power OVER THE LAST YEAR! I don't own any Amazon stock.
It's not three people talking points. And I really don't think anyone other than you and me are interested in the discussion. It's been a repeat of the same "talking points" for a while now.
Yes, bartering has exist for all of human history but it has increasing become a smaller and smaller part of commerce. But that's not the primary issue. Your claim is that bartering using Bitcoin is going to become a significant factor in commerce. I don't agree because I don't think the powers that be are going to allow it to be a significant factor as it is currently structure. There will be a digital currency BUT it will be one that is controlled AND potentially manipulated by those powers that be.
I get what you're saying and I'm saying if you think this bartering with Bitcoin is going to become a significant form of exchange I think you're wrong. It's certainly not going to happen in the U.S. (forgive my U.S.centric attitude) or Europe or China or Russia or any other place where government have had control over currency and commerce.
Yes, it matters over what timeframe becomes timeframe impacts the volume of transactions. If it's small scale the governments of the world may not care. If it becomes significant the more likely they will look to shut it down. And of course you want to avoid a discussion of timeframes because it is central to my argument. Again, the government doesn't care about your 10 loafs of bread (approximately 20 billion loafs of bread sold in the U.S. each year). But let it become a significant percentage of the bread sold in the U.S. and the government will care. So a discussion of timeframes isn't cherry picking, it's central to the discussion. If it's 12 transactions per year nobody cares. If it's 12 transactions every microsecond someone will start to care.
i've been wanting to ask for a while, so here goes.
any of you well-versed in crypto/nft/blockchain etc, know of any service/game/artist etc that has made over 1,000,000 of one specific nft for their project?
May not specifically answer your query with a name but the following article has interesting snippets
https://www.businessinsider.com/nft-based-video-game-earned-over-55-million-2021-12
So does Twitch
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/01/twitch-co-founders-gaming-nft-marketplace-raises-35m/
As for horror stories......
Bloomberg had an article but needs subscription and is behind a paywall.
Axie Infinity NFT game reopens transactions months after $625 million theft
https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/28/23186368/axie-infinity-nft-game-transactions-625-million-theft
Leaderboard: Has the gaming community ‘beaten’ NFTs?
https://massivelyop.com/2022/10/21/leaderboard-has-the-gaming-community-beaten-nfts/
** Edited to add a few links because it is easier to confuse than convince.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Because you keep repeating these three people's talking points, as if reminding us of some of the crypto-bug talking points supports your arguments.
We can disagree about the future size of barter economies using crypto as neither of us know the future. But the fact remains that "the powers that be" have never been able to effectively control barter economies. Why would TPTB be more successful at controlling barter economies now or in the future?
The size of the crypto bartering economy will be a function of the stability of the country's banking system and services and the supply chain. Naturally demand will be lowest in a place like the US where these systems are robust and reliable.
And the non-barter crypto economy will grow as customers continue to demand crypto payment options and businesses see benefit in offering more forms of payment and avoiding the 3% take from the credit card companies and banks. There's a reason why Paypal added crypto capabilities. Amazon is working on it as we speak. Facebook will be integrating crypto capabilities in the near future as well. City, state, and US government don't care about the medium of exchange as long as they get their cut, which they will, even with crypto.
You completely missed the timeframes argument which was not about transaction volume. You asked, "What has happened to your Bitcoin buying power over the last six months?" But you didn't ask, what has happened to your bitcoin buying power over the last 3 years which would have a much different answer.
Governments won't care how much transaction volume there is as long as they get their cut.
As an addition to an earlier post, here's another example of Wall Street wanting in on crypto:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2022/12/04/the-next-generation-blackrock-ceo-reveals-8-trillion-funds-huge-crypto-prediction-after-bitcoin-and-ethereum-price-crash/?sh=1f5a5d786d2f
Now, the CEO of BlackRock, the world’s largest asset manager with around $8 trillion in assets under management that signed a major deal with Coinbase earlier this year, has predicted crypto's blockchain technology will usher in "the next generation for markets."
"I actually believe this technology is going to be very important," Fink said. "Think about instantaneous settlement [of] bonds and stocks, no middlemen, we’re going to bring down fees even more dramatically. Think about it. It changes the whole ecosystem."
So you can argue that the CEO of Blackrock is wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about, or maybe, just maybe, people should pay attention to what Wall St is doing and saying.
I'm not sure what application would warrant creating NFTs in that kind of volume. As each NFT should (by definition) have a unique quality to it, even if just a serial number, there really is no point in issuing a million NFTs. If they are all essentially the same it would be more efficient just to create 1M fungible tokens. The exception might be a large game system like Minecraft in which there may be 1M instances of a particular weapon or item in the game, but there would still probably be no need to distinguish item #1 from item #1M if they are all the same. I don't follow the NFT space closely as many aspects of it truly are a ponzi scheme, although there are some legitimate and useful NFT applications.
They shut down a thread debating the merits of noobs and grading, yet this thread not been closed?
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ya, i actually have some thing(s) in mind and they aren't normal projects. you nailed it. they are "games" and some games that were created right before the big fall/winter crypto pump that went to the end of the year and a bit after. right when supposedly either china/japan, i don't recall, "banned" BTC.
one "game" in particular has one nft, that is used to purchase other nfts in-game, sort of like coins in PS/XBOX/PC games, where you get millions or billinos of coins and can exchange them out for other things.
i'm not going to say the number of the nft i have in mind, just yet. i kinda wanna see what others know about or can come up with. since it costs to create 7+ figures of nfts, they are going to HAVE to be well-funded/successful projects. probably in the 8/9/10 figure range. (gross, not net income)
edited to add: the nfts i know of that are created in HUUUUGE volume, over time, do usually get burned.
I used three individuals as examples but here are many more promoting Bitcoin as either a speculative investment or a form of currency.
The tendency is for governments to exercise more not less control over commerce. The move to digital currency is a move toward more control and monitoring.
If you're arguing Bitcoin as currency what has happened over the last six months is critical. Beyond that if Bitcoin is attempting to prove its value as a long term source of wealth a 50% drop in six months is not a good sign.
The technology is a separate issue. There are many applications for blockchain technology beyond cryptocurrencies.
The main point is Bitcoin absent the government's ability to control it is not going to fly as far as becoming a major factor in commerce. The major governments are not going to give up control of monetary policy, period end of story.
I haven't read all these posts. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say; if you're reading this, the game is rigged and the deck is stacked against you!.. You can take that to the bank! If you did take it to the bank, you better check your account!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
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you got it right. it has ALREADY not ended well for many to the tune of many billions of dollars.
yesterday's ponzi schemes seem like a disney park ride compared to the mismanagement/hacks/thefts/lies etc in the crypto/nft etc space, including with MANY recognizable and reputable names intermingled from all facets of life and from all over the world.
OAKSTAR, that is pretty much with what I agree. They certainly are not my thing either.
Comes down to..... if you like playing the game.... then go for it! Just like the lottery.... you have to play it to win it! (or lose it!)
first time seeing one of his vids but i like the presentation and how clear he speaks and seems to cover the gist of it pretty well.
Again, not sure why we keep talking about what these promoters are saying. It's not clear how seriously anyone takes what they say and no one here seems to be defending their hype.
I assume you're talking about CBDCs in which case I agree.
It is early days my friend. Things will be rough in the beginning and smooth out as adoption grows and spreads and as institutions get involved and there are more derivatives and other mechanisms available.
Definitely.
They don't have to control it. Alternative forms of commerce will prevail as they always have. As long as the government gets its taxes they shouldn't much care how I buy a hamburger.
That's true everywhere. The coin bourse, the stock market, the real estate market, and yes crypto too. It's a game of information and the individual peon usually does not have the best information.
It's probably a naive position if the contention is that the world has seen its last billion dollar ponzi scheme in the traditional financial markets as well. There are fraudsters everywhere and they will use whatever opportunities they can find.
no contention here. it has been, is and will be the same crap from people for legit and illegitimate reasons. those are just the parameters we have to work with all things considered. doesn't make it ok but one must be pragmatic simultaneously. it is probably a great time for the standard ponzi with everyone's bum sore from the crypto beating. when times are tough, crime proliferates. ponzi's are classic and the classics never die...
How serious they are isn't for me to judge. The fact is there are many of them who promote themselves as in the know, that have convinced many to put their money in Bitcoin claiming it's a great investment and/or solid long-term store of wealth. Many of those folks have gotten burned and some burned badly.
I'm talking about anything that will have a significant place in commerce. Governments are not going to give up control of their money making machine. It's the fuel that keeps the machine operating and nothing is going to interrupt their ability to control it whether it's Bitcoin or anything else.
It's early and we're already seeing the clamoring for government control. A tremendous amount of damage was done by SBF and his team of scammers.
Question for you. Why did so many folks go to an exchange rather than manage their own wallets?
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tbh, the whole process with nft/crypto does require some know-how, including creating, managing and securing a wallet.
so lack of knowledge and convenience are probably the top 2 answers.
there are some pretty nasty horror stories of people losing their info and having their funds locked in wallets. i've seen it idk, at the very least multiples of dozens of times.
there are some benefits to using exchanges, if you are referring to coinbase, gemini, binance, kucoin etc. but obviously, serious inherent risk.
And the home shopping network and other TV shopping channels (and newspaper ads) promote terrible overpriced coin investments as well, but most on this board do not dwell on what those hucksters are promoting despite the people who buy that stuff also getting burned. Instead we dismiss what they say and make fun of them, which is what you should do too.
Bitcoin can be a prevalant alternative payment system and governments don't have to give up control of their money printing machines, both of these statements can be true. Since each government decides what forms of payment to accept for payment of taxes, your last statement (nothing is going to interrupt...) is undeniable.
Government control of that which cannot be controlled (decentralized crypto-currency)? People will always clamor for a nanny state to keep us from making bad decisions and hurting ourselves, but I don't want to live in that world. This entertaining 2m video dropped today and explains this brilliantly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWc6DOYQPbU
@LanceNewmanOCC answered this perfectly. As technology evolves we all need to adapt and learn new skills, such as how to keep our online information safe, how to not fall for phishing emails and scams, etc. Just like there is a little bit of learning how to protect the federal reserve notes in your wallet from being misplaced or stolen, there is effort for digital assets too. Some people embrace this more than others. Some take the risks of keeping assets on a foreign exchange more seriously than others. You can take the view that we need government to keep us from hurting ourselves or you can side with personal responsibility and Darwin.
Agree. Convenience is a critical factor in getting folks to adapt to a new system. Add a few horror stories of folks unable to retrieve their funds or the horror stories of an SBF (goes well beyond FTX) and I think you have enough to drive most folks away from a system that isn't perceived as convenient or safe.
Um, Cryptocurrency is about as convenient as it gets for sending money to someone, particularly tiny or large amounts.
The traditional banking system has driven me away with its fees, delays, and restrictions. Very inconvenient. I feel the funds in my crypto wallet are safer than the dollar bills in my safe at home or in the wallet I carry. I would definitely feel safer using crypto to make a transaction from anywhere with internet access and not having to carry large amounts of fiat around.
Banks and the internet need electricity; days-long outages come and go with the climate and snipers.
During the Northeast blackout, nobody could transact anything... in many cases, even if you had cash in hand.
Not really...
The US Dollar is the currency of choice throughout the world. Perhaps there is an alternative world willing to embrace what Crypto has to offer until it fails to meet expectations...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.