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What Does Basic Proof Set Mean...and How Is Its Rule Applied or Denied?

JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭
edited October 9, 2021 12:04PM in PCGS Set Registry Forum

PCGS Set Registry Set Definitions
Basic Set (Date and Mintmark) – The Basic Set includes one of each date and mintmark in the series. For the most of the Basic Sets, varieties can be used in place of a non-variety coin.

How would this rule apply to any of the following Proof Sets:

Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Proof (1909-Present)
Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Proof (1959-Present)

Does this mean that the (4) 2009 Lincoln Cents celebrating not only the Centennial of the Lincoln Cent...but also the life phases of one of history's most beloved Presidents should be ignored and all four coins lumped into one single slot where any coin meets the requirements for the Slot?

Are the (4) 2009 Lincoln Cents considered a variety coin under the Rule?
Or should each coin be given it's own Slot in recognition of the coin's importance?

@JamieKiskis

My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

Comments

  • CasabrownCasabrown Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭

    This is a great question as there are other examples. What was the reason why the 1964 SMS was added recently to the Kennedy basic proof after decades of not being required?

    Furthermore, would it not have important to have an explanation communicated to loyal PCGS collectors when such changes occur?

    Casabrown

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JonJet said:
    Or should each coin be given it's own Slot in recognition of the coin's importance?

    I believe that the 2009 proof Lincolns deserve their own individual slots.

    @Casabrown said:
    This is a great question as there are other examples. What was the reason why the 1964 SMS was added recently to the Kennedy basic proof after decades of not being required?

    Furthermore, would it not have important to have an explanation communicated to loyal PCGS collectors when such changes occur?

    Casabrown

    @Casabrown

    IMO,
    The 1964 SMS coin belongs in this set. Other SMS coins are already contained in this set:1965 SMS, 1966 SMS, 1967 SMS and in the drop down menu you can use the 1998 SMS as a coin to fill the 1998 slot.
    To me the 1998 SMS coin should also have its own slot and by the way it is a 90% silver coin.
    You either require all of the SMS coins or none at all.
    As we all know in order to fill the 1964 SMS slot, one will have to shell out serious $$.
    I did receive a PCGS email notifying me that many of my Kennedy registry sets were being lowered in rank due to new set composite requirements.
    These requirements affected many of the Kennedy Sets and I have 16 of them.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    @Casabrown said:
    This is a great question as there are other examples. What was the reason why the 1964 SMS was added recently to the Kennedy basic proof after decades of not being required?

    Furthermore, would it not have important to have an explanation communicated to loyal PCGS collectors when such changes occur?

    Casabrown

    I have requested more than 300 New Slots over the past 20 months...and EVERY one that is added generates an email...simply because I selected that option in My Preferences

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    Would the same Basic Set Rule above...

    Apply to the Westward Journey Nickels from 2004-2006...and allow them to have separate slots for each coin in the Jefferson Nickel Basic Sets?

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    Here's another example of foolishness and a lack of common sense with regard to New Slots...

    Kennedy Half Dollars Basic Set Proof 1964-Present
    Every SMS coin (64-65-66-67-98 has a separate slot...with the 64 and 98 being the most recently added

    Kennedy Half Dollars Basic Silver Set 1964, 1992-Present
    This Set has NO SMS coins with Slots...but the 1998 SMS is slotted inside the 1998 Silver
    This means that Your Silver 1964 SMS is not allowed...and neither are Your SMS coins from 65-66-67
    The 1998 is 90% Silver and is hidden and buried within the 1998 Silver Slot

    Kennedy Half Dollars with Major Varieties, Proof (1964-Present)
    This Set offers all the SMS coins...64-65-66-67-98 all have their own Slots are are recognized as part of the Set
    However...
    The 64 SMS is NOT a Variety Coin...and to My knowledge doesn't even have a PCGS #
    The 65-66-67 SMS coins are NOT Varieties either
    The 1998 SMS coin is NOT a Variety coin

    If the Rules are plain for anyone to read...why are there sooooo many Sets in Set Registry that defy the very Rules that govern them?

    And when a decline comes...there is no explanation beyond "The Experts have determined..." and no specific details regarding what Rule caused the decline

    @Casabrown @WAYNEAS @JamieKiskis

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JonJet
    Said: The 64 SMS is NOT a Variety Coin...and to My knowledge doesn't even have a PCGS #

    Hope this helps.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    @WAYNEAS

    Here is Your Kennedy Set...see the missing info to the right of 1964 SMS under the PCGS # column?

    There is no published PCGS number to look up in CoinFacts

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My understanding is the Pcgs number appears when you enter a cert#.
    When you use the what if function there are 3 options to choose from.

    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    And I would agree...very odd that it doesn't appear in the Set info like every other coin's PCGS # does

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :)

    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    I've wondered why there is no mention anywhere is Set Registry of Clad coins...

    They are just as much a part of any Proof Set as the nickel and cent...as well as the quarter and half dollar

    Consider the following scenario if You would...and You'll quickly realize the prejudice within Set Registry...

    A member of Set Registry (who will remain nameless because there are likely hundreds if not thousands this may apply to) decides to try to instill an affection for coin collecting within his grandchildren

    Same said collector starts buying Proof Sets from the US Mint...and backfill purchases so that when each grandchild graduates from college they will have a complete set of US Mint Proof Sets from birth year until college graduation

    Said grandchild discovers (at grandfather's nudging) that the coins can be sent to PCGS for grading...and then entered into Set Registry

    But here's the rub...

    If GrandPa bought Silver Proof Sets...the grandchild has a pretty good chance of completing all those yearly Proof Sets...right? But what if GrandDad bought Clad Proof Sets?

    Can You imagine for a moment...the utter frustration and disgust the college grad would have against Set Registry? The Proof Sets are only half complete !

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2021 10:57AM

    If Mitch really wanted to put his +/- $200,000 coin in that 1964 SMS slot, then it might show up if he requested it, but it really is not basic.

    It is not very "basic", if it isn't even supposed to exist.

    Expert Comments:
    Jaime Hernandez

    Plain and simple, the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half's are not supposed to exist. However, there are about a dozen or so examples which have surfaced in the past 15 years. Therefore, it is the scarcest non error or variety Kennedy Half Dollar in existence.

    The 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half dollars display very unique characteristics unseen on any other coins of the era. First of all, the strike is very sharp as it displays very clear details on both the obverse and the reverse. The coins also contain a smooth satin like appearance with the rims being very square and sharp. There are die polishing lines throughout the coins surfaces. These coins also tend to lack contact marks unlike business strike coins, indicating that they were struck and handled under extreme care. Furthermore, the coins do not display the reflective surfaces that are usually encountered on proof coins.

    These 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half’s were first noticed in 1993 when they appeared in a Stacks auction. Apparently, the coins originated from Lester Merkin who was a well known coin dealer. His collection was later consigned to Stacks. It is also believed that Lester Merkin initially acquired the coins from a Mint employee or Eva Adams who was former Director of the U.S. Mint.

    Coincidentally, there are also other Special Strike coins in different denominations that exist for this date. These include the Lincoln cent, Jefferson nickel, Roosevelt dime and the Washington quarter. There is also about one or two dozen sets believed to exist for each of these denominations.

    In numismatics there are also other coins which are not supposed to exist, such as the 1933 Saint Gaudens double eagles and the 1913 Liberty nickels. It also took years before some of these coins ever surfaced, and the entire circumstances in how they eluded the U.S Mint is also a complete mystery. Although, the 1964 Special Strike coins are not necessarily in the same league as other classic rarities, they do tend to have the same mysterious history behind them. The fact there are also very little examples of these coins in existence and much cheaper than other legendary coins, only makes them much more desirable to a lot of collectors.

    As of September 2009, PCGS has only certified 12 examples of the 1964 Special Strike Kennedy Half Dollars in all grades combined. In conclusion, this also makes it the scarcest of all the 1964 Special Strike coin denominations produced.
    Ron Guth

    One of the interesting diagnostic features of the Specimen Strike 1964 Half Dollars is a small, raised defect that appears to hang from the crosslet of the 4. This defect has been seen on all examples except one. In an admittedly rare hypothetical situation where one of these remarkable coins was spent, the defect can be used to confirm the original status of the coin.

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    I have questioned the tern "Basic" numerous times...and the answer always relates to the fact that PCGS sets up their own rules without regard to the US Mint coin issuance...

    There are lots of examples that defy the logic used by PCGS to include/exclude coins from Sets...regardless of Yearly/Denominational/Variety

    2009 is a great example:

    The US Mint issued Clad and Silver Proof Sets...each of which contained 18 coins

    The Set Registry Proof Set requires 26...which means that if You decide to have Your collection consist only of coins You submit for grading...You'd need to purchase 36 coins total and 10 of them would not have a slot in the Proof Set

    The 2009 Proof Sets include Pres Dollars which each have a slot...as well as the DC/Territorial Quarters that are allowed New Slots individually in any of the Pres Sets or Washington Denomination Basic Sets

    Wait...wait...wait...

    PCGS Set Registry Set Definitions
    Basic Set (Date and Mintmark) – The Basic Set includes one of each date and mintmark in the series. For the most of the Basic Sets, varieties can be used in place of a non-variety coin.

    A Basic Set allows multiple denomination issues for the same Year and Mint mark? That breaks the Basic Set Rule !

    When I questioned this...the answer relies on the wide-based acceptance of the State/Terr Quarters Program as the reason they were allowed - I see no Exceptions Clause in the Basic Set Rule

    In addition...as I mention in the first post...the 2009 Lincoln Cents are NOT being allowed into Lincoln Basic Sets - which further defies the logic that allows the other duplicate-issue coins into Basic Sets

    @Goldminers
    As far as "Existence" being a requirement for inclusion in a Basic Set - No clause in the Basic Set Rule either

    And there is no Exclusion Clause that would explain the 1998 SMS being buried within the 1998 Silver Kennedy Slot

    The US Mint had and continues to allow coin collectors to choose what to collect - PCGS is re-writing the rulebook on a coin-by-coin determination that defies common sense and logic - because the Basic Rule is flawed

    As You have stated elsewhere in the Message Board - collect what makes You happy

    I will continue to work on PCGS for clarification and the correct Slot allowances

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • CopperWireCopperWire Posts: 492 ✭✭✭

    The Registry is an institution at this point. Perhaps long volumes written in dark libraries by half-blind numismatists will enlighten the conundrum.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The basic rule to remember is that PCGS owns the forum and the registry and makes the rules. It is possible that you think some of the rules defy logic, but there are also a lot of other people who are quite happy with them.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2021 6:43AM

    Boys and girls- just remember what Justhavingfun (RIP) told us all right here on this message board around seven or eight years ago…

    Justhavingfun on Building A Great Collection:

    “My #1 piece of advice is burning passion. You have to really, really want to do it.

    2, is if you want to build a great collection -- of any type of coin -- you have to focus and become single-minded about it. If you want to build a great US Philipines collection then focus on that, and stop collecting Jefferson nickels, Barber dimes or whatever. Focus. When I was collecting Standing Liberty Quarters, I was a fanatic Standing Liberty Quarter collector.

    3, swing for the fences. Don't be afraid to go out on a limb and swing for the fences.

    4. The other side of swinging for fences is that you have to accept lots of mistakes along the road. I made a zillion along the way ... including paying $1,400 for a bogus 1906-S peso which was a major ouchie. But that's part of the process of learning and building a great collection.

    5. Ignore the Registry Set. Collect what's interesting to yourself, not what the power-that-be at PCGS tell you to collect.

    And most of all, have fun doing what you're doing, because that way, it self reinforces. Which is what I've been doing -- I'm just having fun, and tons of it.

    Best wishes!”

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Mitch:
    I am not a frequent poster, just frequent reader and viewer of wonderful coin photos.
    Such sage comments by Justhavingfun about our wonderful hobby.
    All points are well taken!
    John

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    The whole point of the thread is to highlight the errors within Set Registry...and attempt to make sense of the reasons they give to decline the change

    The Rules that govern what coins belong in what Sets is the issue here...it has little to do with "having fun" or "collecting whatever You wish to collect"

    Another example is the 1976 Silver Kennedy...You won't find it included in the Silver Kennedy Sets

    The reason given? Not enough silver content...but the PCGS Label officially designates the coin as Silver

    Q: So it's not a silver coin even though the label says it is Silver?

    A: Nope...not enough silver content

    Q: So...if it's a Silver coin that's not Silver...why does the label say Silver?

    A: It's labeled as a silver coin...but there isn't enough silver to be included in the Silver Kennedy Sets

    Q: What part of this makes no sense whatsoever to the average person...and what part of the official decree by Congress for the US Mint to create and market it as a Silver coin governs the silver content required to become a Silver coin?

    A: The Set Registry belongs to PCGS - so the Registry Experts determine what coins belong is what Sets

    Some years ago...the bull riders of the National Finals Rodeo thought they weren't getting a fair share of the prize money...so a bunch of them started their own little club called the Professional Bull Riders...where no other rodeo events are recognized because they don't involve riding bulls and they can make their own rules

    The game of chess has been around for centuries...but no group of them has tried to change the rules so their members have an advantage or others have a disadvantage

    PCGS should be no different...The Rules should be published and very specific so they should be able to explain what rule is being used to decline inclusion without just saying "the Experts have determined"

    And therefore...this thread is simply pointing out the variety within the "Basic Sets Rule" as published

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JonJet The 1976 S silver Kennedy is in these sets:

    KENNEDY HALF DOLLARS BASIC SILVER SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES (1964-PRESENT)
    KENNEDY HALF DOLLARS BASIC SET, PROOF (1964-PRESENT)
    KENNEDY HALF DOLLARS WITH MAJOR VARIETIES, PROOF (1964-PRESENT)
    KENNEDY HALF DOLLARS BASIC SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOF (1964-PRESENT)
    KENNEDY HALF DOLLARS WITH MAJOR VARIETIES, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOF (1964-PRESENT)

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    @Goldminers

    Of course...but that's the whole point of this thread...remember?

    Kennedy Half Dollars Basic Silver Set, Proof (1964, 1992-Present)

    No 1976 Silver Kennedy allowed - for all the reasons above

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2021 4:02PM

    @JonJet said:
    @Goldminers

    Of course...but that's the whole point of this thread...remember?

    Kennedy Half Dollars Basic Silver Set, Proof (1964, 1992-Present)

    No 1976 Silver Kennedy allowed - for all the reasons above

    The "Major Sets" I listed above do include the silver layered clads like the 1976-S silver.

    The Kennedy Half Dollars Basic Silver Set, Proof (1964, 1992-Present) is under "Specialty sets" and is clearly defined as only containing coins with 90% silver. The description of the set clarifies the rationale for the set. "Many collectors collect just the 90% silver Kennedy half dollars."

    My point is that I do not consider this to be an error in any rules, it is just another Kennedy specialty set variety.

  • JonJetJonJet Posts: 524 ✭✭✭

    The Basic Set Rule includes one of each date and mintmark...

    The 1976 Silver meets the criteria - 1976 - Kennedy - Silver

    If the 90% minimum silver content is a requirement then the Set Title is wrong

    If Silver content has a minimum percentage...the 1976 Kennedy label shouldn't indicate Silver

    My 1957-2022 Proof Set Collection Has Been Sold

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JonJet said:
    If the 90% minimum silver content is a requirement then the Set Title is wrong

    Then agreeing with your point, perhaps just ask PCGS to remove the word Basic from the set title, so the rule is followed.
    The requirement for 90% silver is documented in the set description
    The specialty set composition should be left as is, for those many members who only collect 90% silver.

  • JWPJWP Posts: 16,410 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are these 1964 JFK SMS half dollars just a 1964 or are they a mix of 64 & 64D half dollars?

    USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
    Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members

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