U.S. Mint denies FOIA request to identify dealers
vulcanize
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The June 9 Freedom of Information Act request filed by Coin World seeking disclosure by the U.S. Mint of the identities of the 18 dealers that comprise the controversial Authorized Bulk Purchase Program allowing the preferential purchase of select numismatic products before public release has been denied by the bureau.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/u-s-mint-denies-foia-request-to-identify-dealers
^^ Read the whole article in the above link.
Something about the shenanigans of the Mint and the secrecy surrounding it all is making it mysterious and rather baffling not in a good way).
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The Treasury Department’s Office of Inspector General has under consideration plans to investigate the United States Mint’s management of commemorative coin programs, its research and development of circulating coin compositions, and its implementation and management of sales of limited-edition numismatic products.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/treasury-inspector-general-may-investigate-mint-sales
There is a lot afoot behind the scenes. The postponement of the Morgan series along with the Peace, push back of other releases, subsequent backorders etc. makes one wonder if there is some sort of manipulation or power struggles etc.
Add to it the denial of the FOIA to name the dealers..........
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Hopefully CW will file a suit to force the answer. There’s no reason to deny the FOIA request for this and it looks bad for the mint to act this way.
But then again, over the decades how many times has the mint adamantly denied this or that and it was later uncovered they unequivocally did do it.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
With the amazing amount of brilliant people on this forum if it becomes important. They can name most all them and probably not miss more than one or two.
Legally there might be a problem so I am NOT suggesting any such list. PM’s between those who need to know maybe.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
The dealer that claims there are no major advantages to the ABPP program is gaslighting pure and simple. If it wasn’t a good deal, he would withdraw as would the other 17. And no one cares about the normal pieces he could technically order in his own name or some one close to him with out the 5% mark up. The coins that matter are the blockbuster flips.
Congress needs to step in and shut down all of its special interest programs. While it’s at it, Congress should eliminate the novelty fake rarities and bloated money wasting commemorative programs, and go back to striking coins for commerce.
Hopefully a suit will force the desired information.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
while i would like to know who these dealers are the mint has an obligation to protect the privacy of ALL of its customers including each of us. Keep in mind these dealers are customers and not contractors to the mint. As contractors the FOIA would override their privacy.
It would be safe to assume that some of the biggest dealers are on this list.
Who they are is not as important as the market advantage they are given.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Those dealers are a marketing arm for Mint products.
Sensitivity to public perception is probably the reason dealers would prefer a low profile.
We all know the accusations of bot technology and preferential treatment and how rampant those accusations can be twisted to alter good standing and reputation.
No, I think the Mint would not want to open a potential can of worms. Be mindful they can be sued by the dealers for revealing inaccurate or misleading proprietary information.
Who cares? We could probably figure it out. But who cares? They had to spend $500k+ in each of the previous 2 years, if I recall the conditions. You can join the club, just up your orders.
Apparently some people do, but I'm not sure why. Suppose the dealers are identified- then what?
Then we get mad about it and demand the Mint stop acting like a normal business.
I kind of hope the Mint completely stops all commemoratives and annual sets. I'm tired of the whining.
[Yes, I know that would require a change in the law.]
Can't you do that without knowing who the dealers are?
They could sell everything through Authorized Purchasers and let them deal with the whining.
The Mint will move more in that direction or start auctioning coins. Which would be fine by me…
Wait a second...compete in an auction with mega dealers for the Peace Dollar? Or other wealthy buyers and dealers? Are you kidding me?
No potential whining on that scenario.
Dealers can't afford to pay more than collectors are willing to unless they want to be collectors, too.
Did you mean "winning" or "whinning"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In the end ... this is all about money ... who will be allowed to make it ... and who won't.
Follow the money and look who was in charge for the past few years. The denial means they are hiding something. This could be conspiracy.
Authorized Bulk Purchase Program = CARTEL
I am sorry but I thought we were NOT ALLOWED to talk about these type subjects? And in fact we are ONLY ALLOWED to talk about COINS? Right?
Dealers speculate that collectors will pay up every day.
Ok. Still... dealers can't afford to pay more than collectors are willing to unless they want to be collectors, too.
I don't think most of this list is hard to figure out.
It is not a normal business. It is an instrumentality of the United States government that relies at least in part on taxpayer dollars. Citizens are right to question special treatment to certain groups although it is a far too common occurrence in DC. It smells of corruption. You kind of wonder what special deals were made behind closed doors to join the elite little group that may not be public.
Collectors could theoretically try to organize a boycott and drive them into submission or bankruptcy. I have my doubts such a strategy would work, but it is theoretically possible.
It's a secret until you buy from them.
I can name a few. Don't need the govt to identify them.
It's not unusual for any business to give preference to large customers. This was NOT a government contract that anyone bid on, it was a perk for major buyers. How exactly do you engage in corruption to make you a major buyer? Anyone who spent more than $500,000 in each of the last year was offered the deal. There is no "special deal". Any suggestion otherwise is paranoia.
Why? Because they make a business of selling Mint products? Ooooo.... such bad people.
https://www.usmint.gov/news/press-releases/united-states-mint-announces-new-authorized-bulk-purchase-program
Pinehurst
Apmex
2 down...16 to go.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/u-s-mint-officials-put-restrictions-on-bulk-buyers
The ABPP buyers were able to pick up their early orders on Feb. 8, at the Mint’s contracted fulfillment center, PSFWeb, in Memphis Tennessee.
The ABPP dealers have to pay a 5 percent premium above the retail price listed for each select numismatic product, plus the cost of picking up the product early.
The dealers were also able to place orders for up to 25 single Proof 2021-W American Eagle, Reverse of 1986 1-ounce $50 gold coins and 45 four-coin sets before public sales of those products opened March 11.
Under an active embargo agreement, the ABPP buyers are only allowed to resell the early purchases “on or after the Mint’s official on-sale date, time, and conditions, such as household order limitations,” according to the Mint
“This new program is structured to better meet marketplace product availability on the initial on sale date, by expanding the distribution of Mint products,” according to Mint officials.
ABBP applicants must be active members in the Mint’s existing Numismatic Bulk Purchase Program (NBPP) in good standing for at least two years, have a two-year revenue average with the NBPP of at least $500,000 annually, and have a history of full compliance with the Mint’s excessive returns policy.
“This new program will help to enhance the distribution of numismatic Mint products as they go on sale, expanding availability of our products by utilizing well-vetted business partners that have long-term relationships with the Mint’s Numismatic Programs,” according to Mint officials. “Not all Mint products will be offered through this program, and no more than 10 percent of products with limited quantities will be distributed under this program.
“No discounts will be given to ABPP members, and some products will carry a premium.
“The products available through this program will be distributed equally to Authorized Bulk members.
“The Mint will not ship product to ABPP members, who must provide their own product security and transport.
“Pick-ups will be allowed three days prior to the official on-sale date.”
I'm soooo jealous. They only have to buy $500,000+ every year, pay a PREMIUM over the issue price, and pick up the product directly at PFSWeb and transport it themselves.
If you folks want to be mad at anybody, you should be mad at the Authorized Dealers of bullion. You can't buy bullion directly from the Mint, you can only buy it from Authorized Dealers. Those folks have the sweetheart deal.
Don't forget to add that Mezack character on TV (can't recall the company name).....now that I bring him up, he was selling the 2-coin RP 'Designer Set', in-hand, ANACS holders, naturally, for $1,299.99
I'm not sure he qualifies. He'd have to spend $500k per year at the Mint. Does he sell that much stuff?
Coin World.............Monday Morning Brief for Sept. 20, 2021: Transparency and trust
The United States Mint’s rejection of our request for the identities of the 18 participants in the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program came as no surprise to the Coin World staff. We anticipated that Mint officials would reject our request filed under the Freedom of Information Act. We will continue to seek the participants’ identities, because the collecting public has a right to know.
We do not intend any malice in seeking these identities. We believe, as do many of our collector readers, that transparency in government is essential. The Mint has long made the identities of its bulk purchaser partners — those who buy American Eagle, American Buffalo and America the Beautiful bullion coins — public. Despite the Mint’s citation of trade secrets as a reason to not disclose the identities of its ABPP partners, we believe that the transparency exhibited for the authorized bullion purchasers program should be extended to its bulk purchasers of numismatic products.
We also do not object to the concept of the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program itself. In fact, years ago we advocated for something similar, a suggestion that was not warmly embraced by some of our collector customers and that will likely find new opponents. The Mint should be able to meet the needs of both its collector customers and its dealer customers, as long as the Mint is fair in its distribution and allocations of limited-edition coins and sets. We also believe that the Mint should vigorously pursue individuals and dealers who try to circumvent household and bulk purchase limits, and deny them access to Mint products for a suitable period of time. Whatever the techniques used by re-sellers — bots, having employees buy the maximum number per household only to turn them over to their employer — the Mint should do everything it can to catch the culprits and punish them accordingly.
We are not seeking details of how much product an ABPP participant purchases; we can sympathize with dealers who do not want that becoming public knowledge. However, by participating in a government program, they should be willing to accept that public disclosure of their membership in the ABPP comes with the benefits.
Continues in link.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/monday-morning-brief-for-sept-20-2021-transparency-and-trust
He sells that much stuff...late nights and weekends, he pops up everywhere, besides his regular gig on HSN
My personal opinion: apples & oranges.
The ADs are granted that status and given a monopoly on distribution for bullion that the Mint itself does not sell directly to the public.
The Bulk Purchase program simply gives the Mint's largest customers an allocation of future releases with NO discount and NO shipping. Those products are sold directly to the public from the Mint.
So, the ADs should be identified as they are essentially Mint subcontractors. Bulk purchasers are simply large customers and there is no "insider" status.
You're one of them aren't you?
You state Pinehurst is one of them. Was this the company that refused to honor the lower prices on the 2019 enhanced reverse proof flippable silver eagle claiming it couldn't get them? I forget.
I am definitely not one of them. lol
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Love this thread.
That is 3 mark-ups. Not much unlike a loaf of bread, or a car. A nice neat capitalistic distribution method. Are you saying there is a thorn in the road?
The mint needs people who can take truckloads, and whose checks are good.
I would be interested in hearing a conversation about "what is the proposed change, the value proposition of that change, and how we would get there?"
I'm GUESSING that Pinehurst is one of them. But those are really 2 different things, aren't they? Do you know that they could get the 2019 ERP? And I'm not sure that one has anything to do with the other.
People are treating everything like it is one of the manufactured rarities. When one of these bulk buyers is buying 5,000 proof sets, they don't care. When they got 45 four coin AGE sets, they think they are being robbed. So, on the basis of the SMALLEST order these folks place, they are claiming they are getting unfair preferential treatment.
For some of the manufactured rarities, these people don't even get the advanced release. For others, they do get an advanced allocation at an INCREASED price. It's a bonus to major buyers, like every other business in America. I refuse to care.
I wish.
By the way, you do know that PCGS offers preferential pricing to bulk dealers, pricing WELL BELOW what you pay. One person I know who gets PCGS bulk pricing gets under $10 per coin on moderns. Maybe you'd like to take a shot at that practice and let our hosts know how unfair you think it is.
Whoa
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
It doesn’t matter why people want to know the names of the companies involved, and it doesn’t matter whether we agree with people upset with this program. What matters is that the Federal government be transparent where they should be. I can tell you with decades of experience, exemption 4 of FOIA (protecting trade secrets) does not apply to the company names of those involved with this program. I anticipate that the appeal will not be successful (because the Mint Director was undoubtedly already involved in this decision, so his decision on the appeal will be no different). But a lawsuit would easily win. The Mint is not accustomed to being held accountable through FOIA, so this is the beginning of their testing the limits of transparency. I hope Coin World pushes this to the courts. Their court fees would be paid by the Mint when they win.
So, should I be able to get your order history via FOIA request?
The FOIA request did not ask for order history; it asked for names, but because you seem to like arguing, I'll anticipate that your next question is if someone could FOIA my name. The answer to that is also no.
The Mint is offering an exclusive program to select companies using criteria that are not entirely objective. Counter to what you've said above, simply spending a large amount of money will not qualify you. Below is an excerpt from their program:
The United States Mint seeks only the most well-established, industry-recognized, and sufficiently capitalized precious metal wholesalers/market-makers to aid in the primary distribution of its silver bullion coin products. Requiring that its APs be highly capitalized ensures that the applying firm will be capable in both up and down markets to actively support a continuous two-way market in large volumes of silver bullion coins during both stable and volatile market conditions. Merely providing a two-way, buy-and-sell retail market in the purchase and sale of silver bullion coins does not in itself satisfy the spirit and intent of this aspect of the criteria. Rather, applying firms should be widely recognized in the silver bullion trading industry as being significant market-makers/wholesalers in the trading of physical silver bullion coin/products. This should, in part, be demonstrated by applicant-provided precious metals trading and bank references. The United States Mint reserves the right to contact these references to validate claims made by the applicant. The United States Mint will conduct the review of a Dun & Bradstreet report on all applicants as part of its credit and financial review of the applicant. The United States Mint reserves the right to consult with other international mints which produce and distribute similar types of silver bullion coins in an attempt to verify the applicant’s industry “market-maker” claims.
This is no different than the Federal government entering a contract with any company, and the contract, dollar amount, and name of the company are all FOIAble.
Or the names and addresses of everybody who has ordered from them?