Confused why PCGS graded this Colombian half cleaned?

NumisOxide

So this is one of the coins I sent in economy, was really suprised it came back Unc. details, cleaned. I don't see any hairlines on it while viewing it under a light with 10x. Has some neat die clashing going on.

MWallace

I can't offer an explanation but am interested what others think. Nice looking coin to me.

Mizzou

They obviously thought it was my coin they were grading -

Crypto

I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

coinsarefun

Resubmit 6 months from now or even better send it ats
It looks fine to me

Edit to add…….crack it out and leave it in a safe place but open to the air…..just in case

davewesen

look at it with a loupe at a 45 degree angle and you might see the tell tale signs of cleaning - pictures will not show a light abrasive cleaning

amwldcoin

The problem is this is the kindda coin that's a 1 shot deal IMHO.

@coinsarefun said:
Resubmit 6 months from now or even better send it ats
It looks fine to me

Edit to add…….crack it out and leave it in a safe place but open to the air…..just in case

Crypto

Not all cleanings leave hairline, that is a false premises

NumisOxide

@Crypto said:
I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

It still has cartwheel luster on both sides. Wouldn't an overdipping destroy most traces of luster? Thanks.

NumisOxide

@coinsarefun said:
Resubmit 6 months from now or even better send it ats
It looks fine to me

Edit to add…….crack it out and leave it in a safe place but open to the air…..just in case

That's most likely what I will do. Will try across the street first.

mannie gray

Not original for sure but looks ok to me.

Crypto

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:
I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

It still has cartwheel luster on both sides. Wouldn't an overdipping destroy most traces of luster? Thanks.

No offense and not trying to disparage but simply educate. having luster doesn’t mean it’s a cartwheel. I been wrong before and I haven’t held it in hand but… nothing about that picture makes me think cartwheel. That term is for a strong refraction that will split the light to the point it looks like spokes of a cartwheel and while the term is loosely applied, it isn’t typically for burnt skinned coins like that. Your half is over dipped, not scrubbed but just over stripped. I was taught the term burnt but over dipped or muted works too.

Notice the absence of mint frost and how all the surfaces have about the same texture and look. Even the high points and fields, that is because they have been equally exposed to the acid. The glimmer/luster you see is the remnants of the original metal flow combined with the new skin, it didn’t look like that from the mint.

Crypto

@coinJP said:

@coinsarefun said:
Resubmit 6 months from now or even better send it ats
It looks fine to me

Edit to add…….crack it out and leave it in a safe place but open to the air…..just in case

That's most likely what I will do. Will try across the street first.

For the price of two grading trips you could just buy a perfect (for you) half in the graded premium choice UNC range FYI. These come in a plethora of looks to include Proof like and toned like these

jmlanzaf

Pictures can lie, but it does look cleaned. Luster breaks plus the toning suggest somewhat harsh dipping.

I think @crypto nailed it.

coinsarefun

@amwldcoin said:
The problem is this is the kindda coin that's a 1 shot deal IMHO.

@coinsarefun said:
Resubmit 6 months from now or even better send it ats
It looks fine to me

Edit to add…….crack it out and leave it in a safe place but open to the air…..just in case

.
.
True, unless this one means more to the original person in the thread.
I’ve had several coins I’ve gotten for certain reasons and spent more grading than the Coin/token was worth. But to me it meant more.

Portross

@Crypto Thanks for your comments, I had a couple of similar-looking coins come back as Unc details cleaned, now I think I understand why. This Columbian half has light peripheral toning and few contact marks. I would have thought at least MS64.

leothelyon

Why I was looking for the label to say "half cleaned" tells me I'm losing it!.

SIowhand

You aren’t the only one. I was looking at the picture trying to figure out which half PCGS thought was cleaned.

ricko

@crypto has defined the situation very well. Examine the coin with his description in hand and you will see the issue. Cheers, RickO

johnny9434

that looks pretty good to me, jmo

edited: Can pcgs give you an answer?

Mr_Spud

Probably these looked over dipped like that before some doctor ATd them to cover up the cleaning

DollarAfterDollar

If the luster isn't right they think it's cleaned. Hairlines aren't the only thing the graders look for.

messydesk

Funky luster, too much gloss somewhere. There could be a wipe mark that you can see under the right light, too.

AMRC

sans the patina most probably

keets

if you would have posted this coin and asked if it looked cleaned I would have answered "Yes" because it does.

NumisOxide

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:
I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

It still has cartwheel luster on both sides. Wouldn't an overdipping destroy most traces of luster? Thanks.

No offense and not trying to disparage but simply educate. having luster doesn’t mean it’s a cartwheel. I been wrong before and I haven’t held it in hand but… nothing about that picture makes me think cartwheel. That term is for a strong refraction that will split the light to the point it looks like spokes of a cartwheel and while the term is loosely applied, it isn’t typically for burnt skinned coins like that. Your half is over dipped, not scrubbed but just over stripped. I was taught the term burnt but over dipped or muted works too.

Notice the absence of mint frost and how all the surfaces have about the same texture and look. Even the high points and fields, that is because they have been equally exposed to the acid. The glimmer/luster you see is the remnants of the original metal flow combined with the new skin, it didn’t look like that from the mint.

Interesting Crypto. I understand that when a coin is dipped it strips off a "microscopic" layer of metal. So every time it was dipped or left in a dip too long the luster becomes muted or destroyed.
I just didn't think they would label a dipped coin, cleaned, just limit the MS grade.

Crypto

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:
I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

It still has cartwheel luster on both sides. Wouldn't an overdipping destroy most traces of luster? Thanks.

No offense and not trying to disparage but simply educate. having luster doesn’t mean it’s a cartwheel. I been wrong before and I haven’t held it in hand but… nothing about that picture makes me think cartwheel. That term is for a strong refraction that will split the light to the point it looks like spokes of a cartwheel and while the term is loosely applied, it isn’t typically for burnt skinned coins like that. Your half is over dipped, not scrubbed but just over stripped. I was taught the term burnt but over dipped or muted works too.

Notice the absence of mint frost and how all the surfaces have about the same texture and look. Even the high points and fields, that is because they have been equally exposed to the acid. The glimmer/luster you see is the remnants of the original metal flow combined with the new skin, it didn’t look like that from the mint.

Interesting Crypto. I understand that when a coin is dipped it strips off a "microscopic" layer of metal. So every time it was dipped or left in a dip too long the luster becomes muted or destroyed.
I just didn't think they would label a dipped coin, cleaned, just limit the MS grade.

Under that logic would they just label a slightly polished/rubbed coin circulated? It isn’t about what happened in the coins past as no one really knows, it is about how the coin looks today. That half looks over processed and not like 130 year old silver. That said it is and the minor end of the spectrum and talk to any number of old timers who can help it back. Their is a reason their are called coin doctors and not coin damagers

NumisOxide

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:
I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

It still has cartwheel luster on both sides. Wouldn't an overdipping destroy most traces of luster? Thanks.

No offense and not trying to disparage but simply educate. having luster doesn’t mean it’s a cartwheel. I been wrong before and I haven’t held it in hand but… nothing about that picture makes me think cartwheel. That term is for a strong refraction that will split the light to the point it looks like spokes of a cartwheel and while the term is loosely applied, it isn’t typically for burnt skinned coins like that. Your half is over dipped, not scrubbed but just over stripped. I was taught the term burnt but over dipped or muted works too.

Notice the absence of mint frost and how all the surfaces have about the same texture and look. Even the high points and fields, that is because they have been equally exposed to the acid. The glimmer/luster you see is the remnants of the original metal flow combined with the new skin, it didn’t look like that from the mint.

Interesting Crypto. I understand that when a coin is dipped it strips off a "microscopic" layer of metal. So every time it was dipped or left in a dip too long the luster becomes muted or destroyed.
I just didn't think they would label a dipped coin, cleaned, just limit the MS grade.

Under that logic would they just label a slightly polished/rubbed coin circulated? It isn’t about what happened in the coins past as no one really knows, it is about how the coin looks today. That half looks over processed and not like 130 year old silver. That said it is and the minor end of the spectrum and talk to any number of old timers who can help it back. Their is a reason their are called coin doctors and not coin damagers

"Dipping" seems to be a grey area though. Not really a set standard but there seems to be a lot of that with TPG.
For one series, a dipped out coin will get a pass but for a more common series of coins they label it cleaned? The standards are over place but guess that's how it is...

Very good point that it depends on how the coin looks today.

Crypto

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:
I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

It still has cartwheel luster on both sides. Wouldn't an overdipping destroy most traces of luster? Thanks.

No offense and not trying to disparage but simply educate. having luster doesn’t mean it’s a cartwheel. I been wrong before and I haven’t held it in hand but… nothing about that picture makes me think cartwheel. That term is for a strong refraction that will split the light to the point it looks like spokes of a cartwheel and while the term is loosely applied, it isn’t typically for burnt skinned coins like that. Your half is over dipped, not scrubbed but just over stripped. I was taught the term burnt but over dipped or muted works too.

Notice the absence of mint frost and how all the surfaces have about the same texture and look. Even the high points and fields, that is because they have been equally exposed to the acid. The glimmer/luster you see is the remnants of the original metal flow combined with the new skin, it didn’t look like that from the mint.

Interesting Crypto. I understand that when a coin is dipped it strips off a "microscopic" layer of metal. So every time it was dipped or left in a dip too long the luster becomes muted or destroyed.
I just didn't think they would label a dipped coin, cleaned, just limit the MS grade.

Under that logic would they just label a slightly polished/rubbed coin circulated? It isn’t about what happened in the coins past as no one really knows, it is about how the coin looks today. That half looks over processed and not like 130 year old silver. That said it is and the minor end of the spectrum and talk to any number of old timers who can help it back. Their is a reason their are called coin doctors and not coin damagers

"Dipping" seems to be a grey area though. Not really a set standard but there seems to be a lot of that with TPG.
For one series, a dipped out coin will get a pass but for a more common series of coins they label it cleaned? The standards are over place but guess that's how it is...

Very good point that it depends on how the coin looks today.

You are correct on your points, as I said you’ll see so many seated dimes that look like that in holders you couldn’t count them all. Commemorative halves, not as many. It’s a sliding scale sometimes.

al410

Personally I think it is a great looking commem, has it been "cleaned" my opinion yes and what manner of cleaning sometimes does not matter. Dipping a coin for some people is ok others not ok. I will say this, as an old guy there was a time many many coin dealers cleaned there coins and over the years many of those coins are now in holders. If your collecting goal is to have your coins in holders a lot of the time your better off buying them in a holder. Like I said I think your commem looks great but it does appear to have been "cleaned" in some way.
Al

jmlanzaf

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:

@coinJP said:

@Crypto said:
I bet it is glossy from over dipping and at a minimum it appears to have burnt luster where the metal flow has been impacted too far (for their tastes) by the acids. That said I have seen many a coin with a similar look in holders. This is the type of look that dealers have ways to mellow them out and resubmit if the core coin was worth more.

If grading is a ranking of survivors, there are way too many Colombian halves out there to compromise standards for be it graders or consumers.

It still has cartwheel luster on both sides. Wouldn't an overdipping destroy most traces of luster? Thanks.

No offense and not trying to disparage but simply educate. having luster doesn’t mean it’s a cartwheel. I been wrong before and I haven’t held it in hand but… nothing about that picture makes me think cartwheel. That term is for a strong refraction that will split the light to the point it looks like spokes of a cartwheel and while the term is loosely applied, it isn’t typically for burnt skinned coins like that. Your half is over dipped, not scrubbed but just over stripped. I was taught the term burnt but over dipped or muted works too.

Notice the absence of mint frost and how all the surfaces have about the same texture and look. Even the high points and fields, that is because they have been equally exposed to the acid. The glimmer/luster you see is the remnants of the original metal flow combined with the new skin, it didn’t look like that from the mint.

Interesting Crypto. I understand that when a coin is dipped it strips off a "microscopic" layer of metal. So every time it was dipped or left in a dip too long the luster becomes muted or destroyed.
I just didn't think they would label a dipped coin, cleaned, just limit the MS grade.

Under that logic would they just label a slightly polished/rubbed coin circulated? It isn’t about what happened in the coins past as no one really knows, it is about how the coin looks today. That half looks over processed and not like 130 year old silver. That said it is and the minor end of the spectrum and talk to any number of old timers who can help it back. Their is a reason their are called coin doctors and not coin damagers

"Dipping" seems to be a grey area though. Not really a set standard but there seems to be a lot of that with TPG.
For one series, a dipped out coin will get a pass but for a more common series of coins they label it cleaned? The standards are over place but guess that's how it is...

Very good point that it depends on how the coin looks today.

Yes, some early series get a pass. But it's not binary. ANY coin can be slabbed after dipping as long as it doesn't look dipped. If it looks dipped, then early bust material and seated material tolerates light doing more than commems or Morgans. The issue is always "market acceptable".

keets

to my knowledge, PCGS doesn't refer to a coin as "cleaned" they designate it as Improperly Cleaned. there is a difference in the two terms when what's being discussed is "dipping" a coin in E-Z-Est or some other formulation. in short, there's a right way to do it that PCGS will accept and a wrong way which PCGS will reject.

this coin has the appearance of the latter.

airplanenut

@keets said:
to my knowledge, PCGS doesn't refer to a coin as "cleaned" they designate it as Improperly Cleaned. there is a difference in the two terms when what's being discussed is "dipping" a coin in E-Z-Est or some other formulation. in short, there's a right way to do it that PCGS will accept and a wrong way which PCGS will reject.

this coin has the appearance of the latter.

https://www.pcgs.com/grades#grade92

keets

and I stand corrected.

dcarr

"over-dipping" will not cause a coin to become "glossy". A long-duration dip, if anything, will cause the surfaces to become duller due to microscopic etching by the acid in the dip.

What will make a coin more "glossy" is a light polish using, for example, toothpaste. Rubbing a coin with a finger and toothpaste will polish it slightly, without leaving any hairlines.

The coin in question appears to be slightly polished on Columbus' portrait.

PerryHall

@dcarr said:
Rubbing a coin with a finger and toothpaste will polish it slightly, without leaving any hairlines.

.......and make it minty fresh.

Soldi

Dip residue. blanch and purple
it's retoning nice

Jimnight

IMO ... the coin looks dipped.

Crypto

@dcarr said:
"over-dipping" will not cause a coin to become "glossy". A long-duration dip, if anything, will cause the surfaces to become duller due to microscopic etching by the acid in the dip.

What will make a coin more "glossy" is a light polish using, for example, toothpaste. Rubbing a coin with a finger and toothpaste will polish it slightly, without leaving any hairlines.

The coin in question appears to be slightly polished on Columbus' portrait.

Yes but many an over dipped coin has been thumbed to put some oil on it and that makes it glossy

Broadstruck

Possibly due to subdued luster from having been cleaned with baking power.

TPRC

I recently purchased a common date dollar for 66 money that came back cleaned. The look was not dissimilar to your half dollar. I actually had my suspicions when I bought the coin but I powered right past those concerns as It had a very clean look. I also had a former grader look at it and he liked it as well. When I got it back and reviewed it thoroughly, I concluded that it had been dipped one too many times. Baking powder is an interesting comment but I think that would take away too much luster. Mine was lustrous but it was just a little bit off.
I sent it ATS where it graded 64 and I sold it. Dipped once, twice, three times? I don't know. In hindsight, mine was dipped one time too many and I hope I won't be making that mistake again any time soon.