Which provenance to assign?

Boosibri

This coin has a nice provenance.... Originated with Virgil Brand, came into the Norweb collection, likely bought by Don Canaparo and placed into the Millennia collection via the Goldbergs and recently sold in the Cape Coral Collection. Today, only the Millennia collection is noted on the holder.

I am going to cross the coin over to PCGS and want to assign a provenance. I am not sure how long of an provenance line PCGS can accommodate ( yes will call customer service) but what order would you prioritize?

My priority order:
1) Norweb
2) Millennia
3) Brand
4) Cape Coral

My logic being that the Brand provenance is noted in the Norweb catalog but neither are noted in Millennia. So Norweb - Millennia broadly preserves the provenance history.

Thoughts?

JohnnyCache

I love your coin, its very attractive.
Your logic regarding the issue of provenance appears to be very sound thinking, at least to me.

neildrobertson

If you document the provenance in your collection properly, then it won't be lost. A nice piece like this shouldn't have its history limited to a 50 character space on a holder. I think choosing the provenance on the holder is more of a marketing decision. Pick the Provenance that would be most meaningful to future collectors of this piece.

MrEureka

I would go for "Norweb" or (my second choice) "Brand-Norweb".

MIllennia was a great collection, but it was assembled quickly and by a dealer, and it was over-hyped. Three strikes and you're out.

worldcoinguy

I find this to be one of the more interesting questions I have read lately.

Virgil Brand is certainly the oldest provenance with broad recognition, but could one argue it was diluted by the sheer size of the collection (300,000+ coins)? Not having intimate knowledge of the collection, was it known more for breadth or quality?
The Norweb might carry more weight with Latin America specialist; I personally find the backstory of the family and multi-generational involvement to be quite is interesting. MIllenia was truly spectacular, but in my humble opinion is was lacking in longevity and it seemed to be assembled with the primary objective of making the most sensational splash in auction. On the other hand, the objective of Millenia was to present the scarcest and highest quality of world type, so inclusion in it speaks volumes about the coin in question.

With all that said, I would agree with your ranking if you had to pick one.

pruebas

Agreed, this is an interesting question. And I agree Millennia isn't that "important" as provenances go.

BUT, if you lose that provenance, you lose what happened after Norweb. So I would be inclined to agree with @Boosibri and list the provenance as Norweb-Millennia. Of course this still loses the Cape Coral provenance, but that would be taken care of by mentioning "purchased from the Cape Coral Sale" when you sell it.

TomB

It's not my decision to make, but given the information you provided I would absolutely go with "Brand-Norweb" and leave it at that.

TwoKopeiki

Millennia does not necessarily add desirability to a coin. I agree with what Andy listed as strikes and would also add that in my experience of seeing a number of Millennia coins in-hand, NGC was a bit forgiving when grading. I would go with Brand-Norweb-Boosi

JohnnyCache

It's a shame that all that information couldn't just be implanted in a chip within the holder like they do with the RF id

Boosibri

@TwoKopeiki said:
Millennia does not necessarily add desirability to a coin. I agree with what Andy listed as strikes and would also add that in my experience of seeing a number of Millennia coins in-hand, NGC was a bit forgiving when grading. I would go with Brand-Norweb-Boosi

Ahh the famous Boosi collection rivaling the recent BKKingdom collection in prestige and desirability

neildrobertson

@Boosibri said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Millennia does not necessarily add desirability to a coin. I agree with what Andy listed as strikes and would also add that in my experience of seeing a number of Millennia coins in-hand, NGC was a bit forgiving when grading. I would go with Brand-Norweb-Boosi

Ahh the famous Boosi collection rivaling the recent BKKingdom collection in prestige and desirability

The Burger King himself has a coin collection???

amwldcoin

Another vote for Brand-Norweb.

robp2

I'd say Norweb for the reasons outlined above.

A consideration could also be what image in a catalogue best matches the coin as seen. I can think of one coin that is in a holder atttributed to Norweb with a big blob of wax on it that isn't present in the Norweb catalogue image, and she only had one piece in her sale. That particular coin was bought by Brand in 1922 and I suspect an assumption was made that she acquired it from his estate. Imagery is important, because you need to corroborate a provenance whenever possible.

Boosibri

Now…do I cross the coin in the older and somewhat scruffy NGC holder, expecting a cross at 64, or do I crack it hoping for a 65 or 64+ which it probably deserves.

Abuelo

Will they give the pedigree without the holder?

Boosibri

@Abuelo said:
Will they give the pedigree without the holder?

Norweb isn’t n the holder just Millennia, but it is plated in Norweb.

Stork

A long time ago there was an interesting kerfluffle (though going the other way I think) where a cracked (?) coin that was a plate coin (or something equivalent). Once cracked the pedigree was lost. I would not crack unless there was some iron clad assurance. And then some. Then again, the details are vague and I don't think there was a public sale involved. The new sale might be enough. But be sure.

Abuelo

I would not crack. If you submit and they are in a bad mood, you have something to lose.

pruebas

Crack it out and submit it raw.

Not only will it be cheaper, but PCGS is very conservative if they cannot see the edge (in my experience) and if it’s a Millennia holder, it isn’t edge-view.

Since the current holder doesn’t state Norweb, nor does the catalog description say it, you will have to prove it anyway, so what’s the difference?

Millennia coins also had a bit of a reputation for being overgraded, so distancing yourself from that is also good. PCGS won’t know it’s ex-Millennia if you are only putting Norweb or Brand-Norweb on the attribution.

Boosibri

@pruebas said:
Crack it out and submit it raw.

Not only will it be cheaper, but PCGS is very conservative if they cannot see the edge (in my experience) and if it’s a Millennia holder, it isn’t edge-view.

Since the current holder doesn’t state Norweb, nor does the catalog description say it, you will have to prove it anyway, so what’s the difference?

Millennia coins also had a bit of a reputation for being overgraded, so distancing yourself from that is also good. PCGS won’t know it’s ex-Millennia if you are only putting Norweb or Brand-Norweb on the attribution.

Agree completely, thanks for your thoughts.

Boosibri

Coin was cracked and again graded MS64, as appropriate. Will hopefully see the cert go live shortly to confirm if they recognized the provenance of Brand-Norweb which I requested and provided detailed pictures to support. Ya never know…

Boosibri

pruebas

Nice. Too bad it didn’t plus though.

Boosibri

@pruebas said:
Nice. Too bad it didn’t plus though.

Agree. I cracked it hoping for a plus. Fortunately, the other two coins in the submission each went up a full grade.

Boosibri

coinkat

Congrats in getting provenance that you were seeking. Love the coin... I could see 64+ which goes towards the subjective nature of grading. But considering the surviving population and how many have been graded, seems subjectivity plays even a greater role as what can this example be compared to and perhaps equally important... what are the expectations for a coin such as this?