1811 Capped Bust Half; Overton Attribution

DelawareDoons

I am struggling with this one. Can anybody more experienced at this than I tell me which die pairing this is?

You can get a little extra zoomy here;

Obverse - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504389130558636052/885729878454984705/IMG_56042.JPG

Reverse - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504389130558636052/885729879495176293/IMG_56043.JPG

DelawareDoons

Best I can figure, it's 110 or 110A.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-over-10-o-101-r1.shtml - overdate, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-over-10-o-102-r2-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml - overdate, bad TI junction, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-103-large-8.shtml - large 8, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-104-large-8 - large 8, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-105-r2-small-8-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml - TE States not joined, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-106-r3-small-8-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml - Crossbar 4, not between, Bad TI junction, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-107-r4-small-8.shtml- Crossbar 4, not between, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-108a-r2-small-8.shtml - No dot, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-109-r2-small-8-capped-bust-half-dollar - Die break rev, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-110a-small-8 - Best possibility imho.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-111.shtml - Bad TI Junction, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-112-r4-small-8-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml- Bad TI Junction, can't be this.

http://maibockaddict.com/1811-o-113-small-8-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml- Bad TI Junction, can't be this.

DelawareDoons

Nevermind, its 110 or 110a. Good enough. Just really late die state which was messing with my mind.

Here's a pretty one also in late die state.

pursuitofliberty

It's a 110. Pretty quickly identified by the Center Dot on the Reverse shield.

The die state does not appear to me to be extremely late, although it has a fair amount of wear around the rim which may fool the eye. Don't get me wrong, it's not an early state but I do not see it as a 110a.

According to Overton, the 110a requires "a die crack from edge below olive leaves to top of UNITED to edge above first S in STATES."

That is somewhat evident on the PCGS pictured coin, but not on yours.

My 4bits

EDITTED to add; Look on the maibock site again and you can see the crack (sort of) between the D in UNITED to above the S in STAES. Here's a better shot of the crack, which is very noticable

lkeigwin

That's a very pretty coin, @DelawareDoons. The die marriage cited is correct. The die state is properly an O.110, not 110a as @pursuitofliberty has said.

In either instance the rarity is roughly the same. The cracked reverse die lasted long enough. Both die states are common R1's. ("Common" sounds strange when talking about a 210 year old coin.)

Overton talks about an obverse die crack as well for the 110a. I've never seen this, FWIW. The reverse crack alone seems to be the defining matter.
Lance.

astrorat

1811 O.110 and a very nice coin!

DelawareDoons

@pursuitofliberty said:
It's a 110. Pretty quickly identified by the Center Dot on the Reverse shield.

The die state does not appear to me to be extremely late, although it has a fair amount of wear around the rim which may fool the eye. Don't get me wrong, it's not an early state but I do not see it as a 110a.

According to Overton, the 110a requires "a die crack from edge below olive leaves to top of UNITED to edge above first S in STATES."

That is somewhat evident on the PCGS pictured coin, but not on yours.

My 4bits

EDITTED to add; Look on the maibock site again and you can see the crack (sort of) between the D in UNITED to above the S in STAES. Here's a better shot of the crack, which is very noticable

@lkeigwin said:
That's a very pretty coin, @DelawareDoons. The die marriage cited is correct. The die state is properly an O.110, not 110a as @pursuitofliberty has said.

In either instance the rarity is roughly the same. The cracked reverse die lasted long enough. Both die states are common R1's. ("Common" sounds strange when talking about a 210 year old coin.)

Overton talks about an obverse die crack as well for the 110a. I've never seen this, FWIW. The reverse crack alone seems to be the defining matter.
Lance.

@astrorat said:
1811 O.110 and a very nice coin!

While I have three people here who actually seem to have a clue, let me ask you about striking characteristics of these coins. See how the obverse stars and a bunch of the peripheral reverse devices are, for lack of a better word, stretched? Why is that? In my mind I was thinking it could be due to deterioration of the dies, but I'm guessing its something else based on this being a 110 and not a 110a?

Thanks for the compliments on the coin. It's a hole filler for now for my set of F-VF raw bust halves I'm working on. 12 down, 20 to go. I'm just going for one example from each year, before anybody asks.

lkeigwin

The general consensus about stars drawn to the edge (obverse) and motto letters blending near the rim (reverse) is that it is a matter of die erosion. Remember, these lettered edge bust halves were struck without collars, so as the dies wore and milling weakened the peripheral devices stretched as metal flowed outward.

It can happen fairly early in striking so not all examples are late die state. And of course many dies were reused in other marriages so the even earliest strikes were sometomes made from worn dies.

Good luck with your raw date set. If you acquire and don't ask too many questions you will be very happy to stop there. But if you make a study of these special coins it will lead to what is called "bust half fever". There is no known treatment other than to submit to it and collect more.
Lance.

jayPem

Hole filler?? Looks about perfect for an F/VF set...👍

DelawareDoons

@lkeigwin said:
The general consensus about stars drawn to the edge (obverse) and motto letters blending near the rim (reverse) is that it is a matter of die erosion. Remember, these lettered edge bust halves were struck without collars, so as the dies wore and milling weakened the peripheral devices stretched as metal flowed outward.

It can happen fairly early in striking so not all examples are late die state. And of course many dies were reused in other marriages so the even earliest strikes were sometomes made from worn dies.

Good luck with your raw date set. If you acquire and don't ask too many questions you will be very happy to stop there. But if you make a study of these special coins it will lead to what is called "bust half fever". There is no known treatment other than to submit to it and collect more.
Lance.

If that is the case, how could mine be a 110 and not a 110a if you look at the coinfacts plate coin for 110a? Not doubting, just trying to learn.

Here's the aforementioned coin;

DelawareDoons

@jayPem said:
Hole filler?? Looks about perfect for an F/VF set...👍

I'd like something with a bit more of the denticles showing. maybe I should call it a VF-XF set at this point though...

The_Dinosaur_Man

The quality of the linked photographs is incredible! Outstanding to see so much detail!

lkeigwin

@DelawareDoons said:
If that is the case, how could mine be a 110 and not a 110a if you look at the coinfacts plate coin for 110a? Not doubting, just trying to learn.

Good question. Based on the rims of your coin and the drawn stars and letters it is undoubtedly a very late die state. Equivalent to the O.110a. Technical definitions aren't always satisfactory for every example (i.e., "it must show the crack to be a 110a").

My guess is the absence of the reverse die crack is less due to circulation wear (always a possibility) but more because the die was so eroded that metal flowed freely across the die to the rim.

Almost all of the milling is gone. No denticles at all on either side where the crack would normally appear. Weak, thin rims did little to force metal flow down into the fairly minor crack.

I checked my library but I couldn't find another O.110 with rims as eroded as yours. Images of an old F15 of mine (below) are close, but the milling and upset rims are strong enough to have filled peripheral devices better. No drawn stars, letters or numerals. This coin too is absent the thin die crack where the milling is very weak.
Lance.

pursuitofliberty

One other possible explanation to your coin, which I somewhat alluded to in my post, is that highest points of your rims seem worn more than the rest of the coin, which makes the state seem later. That wear doesn't seem quite normal, but also doesn't appear unnatural.

Almost as if a good portion of the rims were very pronounced (as the CoinFacts coin appears) and somehow where worn down more dramatically than the rest of the coin. Yours then could be right before the formation of the crack, or, the crack could be so faint on yours that we can't see it in the image.

Your example is MUCH closer to the die state of CoinFacts image than the one Lance shows above. However, as he suggests, sometimes the striking pressure was not equal through the surface of the coin, causing portions of cracks to be almost non-existent, while die deterioration in other areas may be more pronounced ... and this could also account for some of the anomaly.

Conjecture of course, but items to consider.

And this is probably why they call us Nuts

DelawareDoons

@pursuitofliberty said:
One other possible explanation to your coin, which I somewhat alluded to in my post, is that highest points of your rims seem worn more than the rest of the coin, which makes the state seem later. That wear doesn't seem quite normal, but also doesn't appear unnatural.

Almost as if a good portion of the rims were very pronounced (as the CoinFacts coin appears) and somehow where worn down more dramatically than the rest of the coin. Yours then could be right before the formation of the crack, or, the crack could be so faint on yours that we can't see it in the image.

Your example is MUCH closer to the die state of CoinFacts image than the one Lance shows above. However, as he suggests, sometimes the striking pressure was not equal through the surface of the coin, causing portions of cracks to be almost non-existent, while die deterioration in other areas may be more pronounced ... and this could also account for some of the anomaly.

Conjecture of course, but items to consider.

And this is probably why they call us Nuts

For what it's worth, this is the latest die state 110a that has trueviews as far as I can tell.