NGC or PCGS for old world coins to be slabbed?

Herb_T

I have found a number of coins that are graded by NGC but not really any by PCGS. The attached photos below give an idea of the type of coins. Is this because PCGS isn’t really set up to do grading on these ancient coins?

MsMorrisine

Ask on world coin forum

Be diplomatic on a pcgs forum

amwldcoin

I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

PerryHall

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

MetroD

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/faq

Herb_T

Thank you everyone!

messydesk

@MetroD said:

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/faq

They grade World coins much earlier than 1600, but not ancients. I have several from before 1600, the earliest being a groat of Henry VI (1430-31). The earliest I've seen in a PCGS holder is an 8th century Anglo-Saxon sceat, I think.

MetroD

@messydesk said:

They grade World coins much earlier than 1600, but not ancients. I have several from before 1600, the earliest being a groat of Henry VI (1430-31). The earliest I've seen in a PCGS holder is an 8th century Anglo-Saxon sceat, I think.

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

TurtleCat

I’ve seen pics of some coins from the Middle Ages slabbed by PCGS but NGC is clearly the current service of choice for both ancients and dark ages/medieval coinage. I’ve read that there just aren’t enough experts to go around and it takes a good long time to sift through everything to identify a piece and ensure it is not a contemporary or later counterfeit as so many are.

MrMonkeySwag96

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

NGC doesn’t guarantee authenticity for their ancient coins. They only guarantee the grade. The fact that NGC doesn’t guarantee authenticity one of the main criticisms against their service. Reputable auction houses and dealers such as Classical Numismatics Group (CNG) and Harlan Berk guarantee the authenticity of their raw ancients, making NGC’s services redundant.

jmlanzaf

@MrMonkeySwag96 said:

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

NGC doesn’t guarantee authenticity for their ancient coins. They only guarantee the grade. The fact that NGC doesn’t guarantee authenticity one of the main criticisms against their service. Reputable auction houses and dealers such as Classical Numismatics Group (CNG) and Harlan Berk guarantee the authenticity of their raw ancients, making NGC’s services redundant.

So, if I have an ancient coin that is like identified and graded, how much does CNG or Berk charge me for their expert opinion?

If I want to sell my ancient coins through a Heritage auction, can Heritage get an expert opinion from CNG or Berk before the sale?

There is nothing redundant about NGCs service.

LanceNewmanOCC

pops, price guide, coinfacts and registry etc set can give a lot of info, even above information pages sometimes.

if pcgs is grading something, believe you me, people will be submitting them and they will reflect in the pops.

291fifth

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

I thought they only graded and slabbed them. No authentication. Correct me if I am wrong.

jmlanzaf

@MrMonkeySwag96 said:
Here the > @jmlanzaf said:

@MrMonkeySwag96 said:

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

NGC doesn’t guarantee authenticity for their ancient coins. They only guarantee the grade. The fact that NGC doesn’t guarantee authenticity one of the main criticisms against their service. Reputable auction houses and dealers such as Classical Numismatics Group (CNG) and Harlan Berk guarantee the authenticity of their raw ancients, making NGC’s services redundant.

So, if I have an ancient coin that is like identified and graded, how much does CNG or Berk charge me for their expert opinion?

If I want to sell my ancient coins through a Heritage auction, can Heritage get an expert opinion from CNG or Berk before the sale?

There is nothing redundant about NGCs service.

Here’s the thing, CNG and Berk don’t charge you anything for their expert opinion. There guarantee of authenticity is part of their policy. Both CNG and Berk are known for their reputation within the ancient coin market.

Provenance/pedigree is key when purchasing ancients. An ancient coin with a provenance of being sold through multiple different auction houses over the years such as CNG, Berk, Roma, Savoca, is highly unlikely to be fake. These auction houses have expert numismatists on staff. A long provenance of multiple sales between auction houses and dealers means that particular coin has been handled and examined by many different experts. There’s a reason why ancient coins with a long provenance/pedigree sell for a premium.

Why consign ancient coins to Heritage when there are other auction houses like CNG and Roma? There are many ancient coin dealers on Vcoins.com that you can consign to as well. Heritage is mostly known for their US coins. If you consign an ancient coin to CNG or a Vcoins dealer, the ownership history/provenance will be noted which will increase the peace of mind for the buyer.

Much of the services offered by NGC Ancients simply aren’t worth the cost. An example is NGC’s “attribution” of Roman coins. NGC’s attribution of ancients is oversimplified and basic. For example, NGC might identity a Roman coin as an “AR Denarius of emperor Trajan.” Keep in mind, Trajan produced several different obverse types and reverse types of silver denarii. NGC never specified which particular type that denarius is. The standard reference guide for Roman coinage is “Roman Imperial Coins” (RIC). The RIC attributes coins by assigning the various different types a catalog number. NGC never includes a coin’s RIC attribution on their slab label. You’re telling me NGC can assign VAM and Overton varieties to Morgan dollars or Bust halves but they can’t identify the RIC attribution to a Roman coin type? In the case of the aforementioned denarius of emperor Trajan, a RIC 100 is more desirable and expensive than a common RIC 58. Unfortunately NGC doesn’t distinguish between Roman coin types on their slab labels. When attributing Greek & Roman coins, it’s important to cite the catalog number of the standard reference guide of a particular coin series. Vcoins dealers and auction houses like CNG cite the RIC attribution numbers of Roman coins within the description of the lot. Why can’t NGC include RIC attributions on their slab labels? I find it asinine that NGC charges an extra fee just to include info such as an ancient coin’s weight and diameter on the slab label. An ancient coin’s weight and diameter is basic yet vital information for authentication. Ancient coins that don’t fall into the parameters of a given weight range are most likely fake. For example, genuine silver denarii from the Republican period typically weigh between 3.6 grams to 4.2 grams. Most dealers and auction houses include information such as diameter, weight, and die axis for free of charge within the lot’s description. NGC shouldn’t charge an extra fee for basic info to be mentioned on a slab label if the primary purpose of their service is authentication.

Most dealers that specialize in ancients as well as major auction houses generally sell their ancient coins raw and not slabbed. Heritage seems to be the only major auction house to predominantly sell slabbed ancients. The slab is only useful if you’re selling on eBay. Of course, eBay has a reputation of overpriced and below average quality ancients.

Serious ancient numismatists don’t care for NGC’s services. NGC Ancient’s target market are US coin collectors who merely “dabble” with ancient coins.

I collect both US coins and ancient coins. I know the differences between the collecting cultures of US numismatics and ancient numismatics. Unlike US coins, ancient coins aren’t meanted to be sold based on a grading scale. Overall eye appeal and the artistry of the die engraving is much more important than grade for ancient coins. NGC is great for US coins, but their services regarding ancients leave much to be desired.

All of which is irrelevant. There is a market segment for NGC services because Berk does NOT provide the same service.

If I buy or sell a coin not through Berk, Berk is irrelevant but NGC provides a service.

You're correct that ancients aren't collected in the same manner as US coins. However, you are incorrect of you think Stacks, Heritage and GC are not part of the ancients market. In that sector, NGC'S service is valuable.

PerryHall

@291fifth said:

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

I thought they only graded and slabbed them. No authentication. Correct me if I am wrong.

Of course they authenticate them. Why would they grade and slab a coin that they knew to be fake?

MrMonkeySwag96

@PerryHall said:

@291fifth said:

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

I thought they only graded and slabbed them. No authentication. Correct me if I am wrong.

Of course they authenticate them. Why would they grade and slab a coin that they knew to be fake?

They authenticate them in that they won’t knowingly slab a ancient coin they think is fake. However the NGC guarantee doesn’t apply to the authenticity of ancient coins according to the NGC website. In the rare chance that a coin is fake, NGC Ancients won’t be held liable. Auction houses and dealers like CNG, Roma, and Vcoins do guarantee authenticity and will be liable in the rare chance a coin happens to be fake.

291fifth

By my way of thinking, if the authentication isn't guaranteed then it isn't authenticated.

TPRC

@MrMonkeySwag96 said:

@PerryHall said:

@291fifth said:

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

I thought they only graded and slabbed them. No authentication. Correct me if I am wrong.

Of course they authenticate them. Why would they grade and slab a coin that they knew to be fake?

They authenticate them in that they won’t knowingly slab a ancient coin they think is fake. However the NGC guarantee doesn’t apply to the authenticity of ancient coins according to the NGC website. In the rare chance that a coin is fake, NGC Ancients won’t be held liable. Auction houses and dealers like CNG, Roma, and Vcoins do guarantee authenticity and will be liable in the rare chance a coin happens to be fake.

Wow! That I did not know.
I have received several ancient coins back from NGC identified as authenticity unverifiable. So, I assumed that their guarantee covered such issues. BTW, in each case, at the insistence of other dealer friends, I mentioned the matter to the dealer I bought it from. In each case, other dealers viewed the coin and the general consensus was that the coins were authentic. And, in each case, the dealer insisted upon buying the coin back from me.

MrMonkeySwag96

“> @PerryHall said:

@291fifth said:

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

I thought they only graded and slabbed them. No authentication. Correct me if I am wrong.

Of course they authenticate them. Why would they grade and slab a coin that they knew to be fake?

“ Authenticity and attribution represent the opinion of NGC Ancients and are not guaranteed, nor is any guarantee implied.”

https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/

MrMonkeySwag96

@TPRC said:

@MrMonkeySwag96 said:

@PerryHall said:

@291fifth said:

@PerryHall said:

@amwldcoin said:
I don't believe PCGS certifies ancients unless something has changed very recently I am unaware of.

Agree. Only NGC and ANACS authenticates, grades, and then slabs ancient coins.

I thought they only graded and slabbed them. No authentication. Correct me if I am wrong.

Of course they authenticate them. Why would they grade and slab a coin that they knew to be fake?

They authenticate them in that they won’t knowingly slab a ancient coin they think is fake. However the NGC guarantee doesn’t apply to the authenticity of ancient coins according to the NGC website. In the rare chance that a coin is fake, NGC Ancients won’t be held liable. Auction houses and dealers like CNG, Roma, and Vcoins do guarantee authenticity and will be liable in the rare chance a coin happens to be fake.

Wow! That I did not know.
I have received several ancient coins back from NGC identified as authenticity unverifiable. So, I assumed that their guarantee covered such issues. BTW, in each case, at the insistence of other dealer friends, I mentioned the matter to the dealer I bought it from. In each case, other dealers viewed the coin and the general consensus was that the coins were authentic. And, in each case, the dealer insisted upon buying the coin back from me.

Don’t get me wrong, NGC has a great team of experts. The director David Vagi, and his assistant Barry Murphy are well respected ancient numismatists. So any coin they handle are most likely genuine.

However, NGC shouldn’t be seen as the end all and final word in regards to authenticity. There is more peace of mind in regards to the authenticity of ancient coins if they passed through the hands of multiple dealers and auction houses over the years. NGC certification should be seen as merely a single set of hands and eyes within the vetting process of ancient coins.

This is why provenance/pedigree is more important for ancient coins compared to US coins. Unless your US coin was formerly owned by Eliasberg or Pougue, nobody cares much about the ownership history of US coins. A Bust dollar having been sold by Heritage in the past year doesn’t mean much to collectors. However, provenance and ownership history means a lot for ancient coins due to their widespread counterfeiting. Where you bought an ancient coin matters much. Obviously, a Greek/Roman coin with a history of being sold in CNG, Roma, Harlan Berk, and Stacks within a span of a couple decades will have little doubt to its authenticity due to passing through the hands of so many experts. Ancient coins with long provenance tied to auctions and dealers command a premium. Ancient coins that were formerly owned by the authors of reference guides are also desirable. A coveted pedigree for Greek coins is being ex BCD collection. BCD was an author of the reference guides of coins from Thessaly, with some coins from his collection being used as plate images in the books. Obviously, ancient coins once owned by the authors of reference guides have little doubts to authenticity. Nations like Italy, Greece, and Turkey have made restrictions regarding the export and sale of cultural antiquties (MOU). If you know the provenance and ownership history of your ancient coin, it can be exempt from such resurrections due to a grandfather clause.