AU59 for "cabinet rub"
CopperWire
Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
MS = Mint State
BU = Brilliant Uncirculated
AU = About Uncirculated
Let's skip the semantics and recognize that cabinet rub is not the state the mint released the coin. Instead of the arguments on AU vs MS for cabinet rub, AU59 could help. Thoughts?
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Mint surfaces is what people mean by mint state. Total circulation wear is different than mishandling.
You’re not technically wrong but grading is an art not a science and PCGS’s standard is as legitimate as the Sheldon’s or the redbook which are merely guides to conceptualize value.
Consider total coin/ market grading and such semantics become less relevant.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Rub is rub.
Not really, while friction is what it is, it is a big difference by what imparts it be it a tray, thumb or other coins. If a Morgan can be mint state completely covered in bag mark, you’re telling me one cant be with a little oxidized finger oil or high points with impacted luster form storage? Nonsense
Obviously there is a line somewhere out there but it isn’t black and white
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Not really, while friction is what it is, it is a big difference by what imparts it be it a tray, thumb or other coins.
this is an interesting topic of discussion and is highlighted by opinions such as that expressed by our learned member, 291fifth: Rub is rub.
I find it interesting that a Morgan Dollar can bounce around in a canvas bag for almost a century and obtain numerous contact marks, yet remain Mint State. take that same Morgan Dollar by hand out of the press and place it in a coin cabinet where it never contacts anything but felt and it will be called AU due to slight rub after that same century.
that doesn't make sense but it is the state of affairs in the Hobby.
Isn’t it a matter of circulation?
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Many would rather buy the AU58 CAC with a little (cabinet) rub over the pockmarked MS61 and I think that’s often reflected in the market prices.
Can I get an AU-59+ then?
Rub is likely to occur only on the highest points on the coin, the same high points that are where circulation wear first occurs. Bag marks from coins hitting each other occur all over the place. That’s what makes a bag marked low grade unc coin identifiably different than one with rub on the high points.
Mr_Spud
I think the real debate here is technical grading vs market grading. We’ve all seen 63 holdered coins with a tiny bit of rub - often early US gold. Personally, I feel that is an attempt by the TPGs at market grading - though I don’t view it as necessarily right or wrong.
It is far rarer to see 20th C silver with rub in a 63 holder - technical grading seems to prevail.
You have to buy the coin, not the holder - the TPGs and CAC are professional opinions and give reassurance around grade and quality but at the end of the day, the market price is what people will pay. Often, there is a huge price spread even within a single grade. Coins at lower grades with great eye appeal often sell for more than those with higher grades - the recent Fairmont Collection CAC gold for example.
There's already so many grades it's to the point of absurdity. I'd like to see things go the other way with fewer grades. But that will never happen. Too much money would be lost.
There's a huge difference between bag marks and friction rub. Bag marks are created even BEFORE the coins are put in the bag. Bag marks come from coins hitting coins. They are not gently placed in the bag. They drop into the bin. If you get rub from the coin rubbing against the canvas bag, it also will fail to MS.
Is a little rub from my pocket, especially my felt pants, also to be ignored?
Rub is rub, as was said. Rub is not akin to bag marks. Rub is a coin against a foreign material. A bag mark is a coin against another coin.
AU-58 is fine with me. In a lot of cases I'll take the rub over a bunch of dings in focal areas. As long as a good amount of luster is still present I'm good.
The term "cabinet rub" is really just an old time attempt to squeeze more money out of a coin that has seen light circulation. How do you know the "rub" came from being in a coin cabinet? You don't. Coin collectors and dealers have been thinking up new ways to make more money on the coins from their collection/stock for as long as there have been collectors/dealers.
We already have the AU58+ grade so we don't need the AU59 grade. We've done enough hair splitting of the grading scale already.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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Maybe we should have a specific Struck State, as in just struck by the press, in addition to a more encompassing Mint State?
Of course we need AU59!
Just look at the sad state of affairs of AU grades, especially when compared to MS grades!
There are 18 MS grades and only 8 AU grades
MS
AU
There's only a lot with MS, not with AU!
No AU59 grade
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It's all up to the buyer. I, personally, have seen and bought far more desireable AU58 coin than any MS61/MS62 coins, perhaps even MS63. In my opinion, a slight rub from any means is far less distracting than a ding marked cheek or field regardless of grade. Now when price and value come into play it changes the playing field, for resale and collecting are two totally different aspects of the hobby, yet it seems we continue to try to combine the rules for the two.
Jim
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"Cabinet friction" is a matter of circumlocution. ☺️
People talk in generalities about the 58 and low MS grades. I agree I have seen some AU58 that were as nice as 62 or lower 63s but I have also seen 61s that are nicer than any 58. Especially on older material like seated. Not all 61 are baggy morgans and not all 58s are Choice UNC with rub
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Many good points mentioned.... What we really need is a set of standards. We have general categories, assigned by informed opinion. Of course, if standards were developed and accepted, all these fun debates would go away and we would be stuck just looking at coins. Oh the tragedy....
Cheers, RickO
You mean something like this?
https://www.pcgs.com/grades
@Zoins ... They are not standards....Real standards are measurable and repeatable. Check the National Bureau of Standards. Using the word does not make it so. Cheers, RickO
Like I said-to the point of absurdity.
I did not realize the plus grades were considered separate grades. I thought they were sort of like a proprietary CAC, not a true "grade up"
They are a half grade up.
Cabinet friction, whether it's actually from a cabinet or not, is generally understood to be separate from "light circulation" in that there is only wear on the high points.
Light circulation, in contrast, generally means both wear on the high points plus light wear and loss of luster in the fields.
The dividing line between MS and AU is often when the wear extends into the fields, not just the high points.
It makes no difference. It is wear. As I said earlier, it is just another attempt to get more money from a buyer. Coin collecting is a very "profit" motivated hobby for a large percentage of its participants. This was the case when I started collecting 60 years ago and is still true today.
I agree with a lot mentioned above except that bag friction cannot/should not be given an MS grade. I do not see that different from coins hitting coins in the mint bag, and should only lower the grade down to MS60. The ~60 lb Morgan bags were not gently handled and a lot of those next to the canvas probably received friction scrapes when thrown several times. I am ok if they receive an MS grade. The question is how do you distinguish bag friction from cabinet and other user caused rub.
Or a half grade down
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Or omphaloskepsis
My Saint Set
Well, this certainly spawned the same spirited debate as other similar threads. The question was whether or not using the 59 grade would satisfy the need to differentiate "cabinet rub" from circulation wear (58).
59 has always been a grade in the Sheldon scale, as is 47 and 33. The TPGs don't use those grades but they still exist as part of Sheldon. Utilizing the system in a more effective way is not "adding another grade."
And the answer is that there is no difference to differentiate.
You really can't know where the rub came from.
How much were people moving around and shaking their coin cabinets to where it actually wore down a coin??
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The coins lay flat in a slot. Just opening and closing the drawer caused coin movement. It's not usually "worn down". There are usually hairlines on the high points.
So, you're saying that a 65+ is half a grade lower than a 65?
My Saint Set
I'm guessing Elvis should not have carried them coins in his pocket when he was on stage!!
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I think this coin is an excellent example of "cabinet rub", you can really see it in the leg/thigh area. It grades an MS64.
How about this better date Morgan dollar? It does not look like it circulated to me, cotton balls on obverse do not show wear, reverse looks Unc...
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We don’t need Au 59 we need an asterisk next to ms coins with a rub so people understand the coin isn’t truly uncirculated. Like ms63* based on high point friction.
Might be the picture. But it looks circulated to me.
From that photo, I agree it looks slightly circulated. When I think of uncirculated rub on a Morgan, whatever the cause, it would only effect an small area, maybe the size of a dime or nickel, and only on 1 side. The rest of the coin would have the full luster.
That it is probably circulated should not effect your enjoyment of the coin. Appears to be a very nice AU58 on a much better date, and one with low POP #s. Supposedly on 4,000 were minted. You can find a 93-S easier than a 79 S Rev 78.
Looks like AU58 to me
No but it is often a 66 with a yah-but.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I showed it to the dealer I bought it from who called it an MS62, and he said they used to call similar coins "Unc. with cabinet friction". He still saw it as an Unc., heck maybe some day it will get into an unc holder.