Multiple Photos of the Same Coin

Zoins

One thing that is neat about coin photography is that a few settings of the camera and lights can result in very different photos.

A great thing about PCGS TrueView is that Phil @PCGSPhoto often (but not always) takes multiple photos so you can get different views of the same coin. If you prefer a different look to the one posted, just reach out and ask

Here's a thought, should PCGS have multiple TrueViews at the same time? Typically, there's only 1 TrueView active at a time so to get multiple views, you need to get them over time. Would it be valuable for PCGS to have more than one active TrueView for alternative perspectives at the same time?

Here are two TrueViews of the Faouk-Weitzman 1933 Double Eagle. The top is form when the images were first posted before the Sotheby's Weitzman sale and the second is what's on Cert Verification now. A caveat here is that the top TrueView here was taken by SquareMoose for Sotheby's but represented as a TrueView by PCGS.

Post any other coins with multiple photos in this thread! More to follow as I find them!

Zoins

Here's another pair:

koynekwest

That's quite a difference.

I just wish they'd image every coin they get to provide a photographic record of PCGS slabbed coins. I already get trueviews of all the coins I submit but I wouldn't mind paying a little more and having them imaged automatically.

Rexford

The first photo in the OP is not a TrueView. It’s the image taken by Sotheby’s.

Zoins

@Rexford said:
The first photo in the OP is not a TrueView. It’s the image taken by Sotheby’s.

You're right in that it wasn't taken by Phil and team, so I've amended the original post to make it more clear.

That being said, regardless of who took the photo, it is a TrueView because PCGS calls it one. PCGS posted the images with the TrueView logo and background on the Press Release (still present) and Cert Verification (changed out now). Here's the April 8, 2021 Press Release.

https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-certifies-ultra-rare-1933-saint-gaudens-double-eagle-gold-coin

Zoins

@Rexford An interesting thing to note is that PCGS never called the following "Supernova" coin Press Release photo a TrueView though I wish they would!

https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-certified-supernova-double-eagle

Here's the PCGS Press Release Photo and the TrueView to compare:

ricko

Over the years, it has been clearly demonstrated, that coin photography can depict a coin in different ways. That is why it can be tough to grade from pictures and tricky to buy...Cheers, RickO

gumby1234

I think that they should take photos that look like the coins do in hand.

PerryHall

@gumby1234 said:
I think that they should take photos that look like the coins do in hand.

A coin can look different in hand depending on light source and the angle the light hits the coin.

gumby1234

@PerryHall yes that's true. I have a TruView of my 23S buffalo nickel that looks nothing like the coin in hand thou. Then I have an NGC image of my 48D roosie and it looks exactly like the coin in hand. When buying I personally would rather see what the coin actually looks like.

PerryHall

@gumby1234 said:
@PerryHall yes that's true. I have a TruView of my 23S buffalo nickel that looks nothing like the coin in hand thou. Then I have an NGC image of my 48D roosie and it looks exactly like the coin in hand. When buying I personally would rather see what the coin actually looks like.

Viewing a coin in hand is always better than viewing pics. Anyone remember the old days before third party grading and computers when dealers sold coins from price lists with a written description and nothing else? I spent a lot of money on postage returning coins before finding a few dealers whose descriptions and grading could be trusted.

Catbert

How about having the most accurate representation versus trying to achieve the most colorful view? I see so many TVs that I believe are the latter. Not for me.

gumby1234

I never bought any coins from a list back in the day. I went to every coin store I could find and hand selected the coins I bought. Thats how I got so many nice roosevelt dimes. Got them on the cheap too because people didn't realize their potential back then. My 49S alone I can sell for 5 times more than I paid for the whole set. My 51D is worth even more than the 49S.

Pedzola

Here is one, my photos vs trueview. Great coin. Trueview is a little washed out for me. Which one is more accurate? Trueview shows every mark and detail, but I think my photo has more contrast, a better sense of the overall eye appeal in hand.

Zoins

@PerryHall said:

@gumby1234 said:
@PerryHall yes that's true. I have a TruView of my 23S buffalo nickel that looks nothing like the coin in hand thou. Then I have an NGC image of my 48D roosie and it looks exactly like the coin in hand. When buying I personally would rather see what the coin actually looks like.

Viewing a coin in hand is always better than viewing pics. Anyone remember the old days before third party grading and computers when dealers sold coins from price lists with a written description and nothing else? I spent a lot of money on postage returning coins before finding a few dealers whose descriptions and grading could be trusted.

The photos we have today are way better than the print catalogs of old with no photos or black and white ones.

PCGS does a great job with the photos, and also including them on Cert Verification and CoinFacts! They are the leaders in the area.

gumby1234

@Zoins Their photos look great. Just not accurate as to coin in hand.

Zoins

@gumby1234 said:
@Zoins Their photos look great. Just not accurate as to coin in hand.

That’s not bad as photos are static and holding a coin in hand is dynamic.

That being said, I’ve paid hefty premiums for coins based only on a TrueView to be astounded by how close the coin was when holding it hand.

With the amount of photos PCGS takes and the subjectivity of evaluation, I’m sure there will be people that love it and those that don’t. Overall, they seem to be doing really well.

PCGSPhoto

Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins. But what it boils down to is that the PCGS photo team is a small group of talented human beings who have to make quick subjective decisions in order to process the product as efficiently as possible. We try to be accomodating, but for example I personally shot upwards of 900 coins yesterday (team as a whole did well over 2000) so the shots take a matter of a few seconds to produce before the coin is on its way to the next step. Not a lot of time to examine individual coins and zero opportunity to edit the coin (this part is automated) while having it on-hand for comparison. In general people are pleased with the product.

Thanks,
Phil

braddick

@PCGSPhoto said:
Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins. But what it boils down to is that the PCGS photo team is a small group of talented human beings who have to make quick subjective decisions in order to process the product as efficiently as possible. We try to be accomodating, but for example I personally shot upwards of 900 coins yesterday (team as a whole did well over 2000) so the shots take a matter of a few seconds to produce before the coin is on its way to the next step. Not a lot of time to examine individual coins and zero opportunity to edit the coin (this part is automated) while having it on-hand for comparison. In general people are pleased with the product.

Thanks,
Phil

Any chance PCGS could have a second tier where the collector is charged more and with that added time and attention to the photo is offered?

Zoins

@PCGSPhoto said:
Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins.

This is the jist of the thread. Different lighting or techniques can create different photos. For me, great to see multiple photos taken by professionals under different conditions.

In general people are pleased with the product.

I agree 100%!

For me, TrueView has been amazing for researching patterns, Civil War Tokens and So-Called Dollars. It is wonderful for enjoying coins. It’s night and day with and without your service and I’m firmly in the I like it camp!

gumby1234

@PCGSPhoto you guys and or gals take great photos. The detail is very clear.

shish

Thanks for responding to this thread. I realize that the pressure to maximize efficiency directly effects quality.

1. There is no question that many of the images I've received from you are great.
2. Unfortunately, I'm convinced that someone on your team is taking poor quality images.
3. I've emailed you many examples, that are washed out due to excessive light. This is most obvious on medium and darkly toned coins, causing the coins to appear heavily dipped.
4. In addition, sometimes the light is not evenly distributed across the coin.

If you have not already done so please make your management aware of the problem and propose a plan of action to improve the quality of images.

Thank You

Cameonut

Toned cameo proofs can be quite a challenge. Here is one of my favorite coins. Imaged by @airplanenut back in 2005.

Zoins

@Cameonut said:
Toned cameo proofs can be quite a challenge. Here is one of my favorite coins. Imaged by @airplanenut back in 2005.

Nice example. Which one do you think is more accurate? Or are they both accurate?

I have coins like this and the look changes depending on the angle of the light, easily achieved by tilting the coin.

Catbert

@PCGSPhoto said:
Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins. But what it boils down to is that the PCGS photo team is a small group of talented human beings who have to make quick subjective decisions in order to process the product as efficiently as possible. We try to be accomodating, but for example I personally shot upwards of 900 coins yesterday (team as a whole did well over 2000) so the shots take a matter of a few seconds to produce before the coin is on its way to the next step. Not a lot of time to examine individual coins and zero opportunity to edit the coin (this part is automated) while having it on-hand for comparison. In general people are pleased with the product.

Thanks,
Phil

Can you address the red shift in many of the photos produced?

Cameonut

@Zoins said:
Nice example. Which one do you think is more accurate? Or are they both accurate?

I have coins like this and the look changes depending on the angle of the light, easily achieved by tilting the coin.

You got it right - it all depends on the angle of the light. Both are accurate depending on how you hold it.

airplanenut

@Cameonut said:

@Zoins said:
Nice example. Which one do you think is more accurate? Or are they both accurate?

I have coins like this and the look changes depending on the angle of the light, easily achieved by tilting the coin.

You got it right - it all depends on the angle of the light. Both are accurate depending on how you hold it.

It's especially true of proofs--you can shoot to show the frost (and black fields) or to evenly light everything which shows color. Same effect as when you hold it.

koynekwest

@PCGSPhoto said:
Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins. But what it boils down to is that the PCGS photo team is a small group of talented human beings who have to make quick subjective decisions in order to process the product as efficiently as possible. We try to be accomodating, but for example I personally shot upwards of 900 coins yesterday (team as a whole did well over 2000) so the shots take a matter of a few seconds to produce before the coin is on its way to the next step. Not a lot of time to examine individual coins and zero opportunity to edit the coin (this part is automated) while having it on-hand for comparison. In general people are pleased with the product.

Thanks,
Phil

I am, in general, quite pleased with my trueviews.

crazyhounddog

This is a great topic. What you do with your lights and what type of shadows are cast will most definitely make the subject coin take on different appearances, mostly depth . I also like your examples 👌
When picking up, or trying to pick up colors off a coin in it’s true light can be tricky for sure. I think this leads to some of the cartoonish looking images you see sometimes when searching through listings.

The_Dinosaur_Man

I've been pursuing the multiple photo route for a couple of years now, and I developed a widget to allow the viewer to switch back and forth between paired images to simulate the act of tilting the featured coin to an overhead light. We as a society are growing increasingly dependent on technologies that do not yet exist.

crazyhounddog

@PCGSPhoto said:
Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins. But what it boils down to is that the PCGS photo team is a small group of talented human beings who have to make quick subjective decisions in order to process the product as efficiently as possible. We try to be accomodating, but for example I personally shot upwards of 900 coins yesterday (team as a whole did well over 2000) so the shots take a matter of a few seconds to produce before the coin is on its way to the next step. Not a lot of time to examine individual coins and zero opportunity to edit the coin (this part is automated) while having it on-hand for comparison. In general people are pleased with the product.

Thanks,
Phil

That answers many questions right there as to how long to coin stays under the lens. I’m sure you guys use auto focus but beyond that is anything else auto, like aperture and shutter speed ? Or, is that part manually done? I would imagine it would have to be done on the manual mode in order to set your white balance, but maybe not. I would love to know the answer.
Thank you for taking the time to chime in on this subject. Very cool 😎

U1chicago

crazyhounddog

@Cameonut said:
Toned cameo proofs can be quite a challenge. Here is one of my favorite coins. Imaged by @airplanenut back in 2005.

You have to put the light right on the proof to pick up the colors. When a proof is behind plastic it becomes a monster to pick up the colors. I can do it but, here comes that expression again, they kinda take on that “Cartoonish” look that I have to deal with. Without the plastic it’s a breeze. A proof behind the plastic big problem that can be done with editing.

airplanenut

@crazyhounddog said:

@PCGSPhoto said:
Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins. But what it boils down to is that the PCGS photo team is a small group of talented human beings who have to make quick subjective decisions in order to process the product as efficiently as possible. We try to be accomodating, but for example I personally shot upwards of 900 coins yesterday (team as a whole did well over 2000) so the shots take a matter of a few seconds to produce before the coin is on its way to the next step. Not a lot of time to examine individual coins and zero opportunity to edit the coin (this part is automated) while having it on-hand for comparison. In general people are pleased with the product.

Thanks,
Phil

That answers many questions right there as to how long to coin stays under the lens. I’m sure you guys use auto focus but beyond that is anything else auto, like aperture and shutter speed ? Or, is that part manually done? I would imagine it would have to be done on the manual mode in order to set your white balance, but maybe not. I would love to know the answer.
Thank you for taking the time to chime in on this subject. Very cool 😎

When a camera is on a copy stand shutter speed doesn’t really matter since nothing is moving. I shoot aperture priority because the shutter speed is just a fallout based on getting the aperture right. Under bright lights you’d really have to screw up to have it be so slow that any issues could crop up as a result.

“Manual” refers just to shutter, aperture, and ISO. White balance is separate, and surely they use a manual white balance tuned to their lights instead of an auto setting; this is unrelated to shooting in “manual.” For what it’s worth, if I ever shoot away from my main office I’ll redo the white balance calibration just in case there’s a change in color due to some amount of outside lights I can’t control or even a colored light reflection off a wall.

FullHorn

When you have the camera tethered to a computer with a live view on a large monitor and the ability to move the lights around and adjust numerous settings. It is amazing the different looks you can get from a coin. I find the "glamour shot"
and discard the rest. I do this with every new coin.

Some days I think I have stumbled upon a great combination of settings and start shooting all my favorite coins again.
Only to find out after doing a comparison that the new shots are no better than the old ones.

PCGS does a fantastic job. I probably spent hours on this coin.

crazyhounddog

@airplanenut said:

@crazyhounddog said:

@PCGSPhoto said:
Sometimes we can use some different lighting or technique for certain coins. But what it boils down to is that the PCGS photo team is a small group of talented human beings who have to make quick subjective decisions in order to process the product as efficiently as possible. We try to be accomodating, but for example I personally shot upwards of 900 coins yesterday (team as a whole did well over 2000) so the shots take a matter of a few seconds to produce before the coin is on its way to the next step. Not a lot of time to examine individual coins and zero opportunity to edit the coin (this part is automated) while having it on-hand for comparison. In general people are pleased with the product.

Thanks,
Phil

That answers many questions right there as to how long to coin stays under the lens. I’m sure you guys use auto focus but beyond that is anything else auto, like aperture and shutter speed ? Or, is that part manually done? I would imagine it would have to be done on the manual mode in order to set your white balance, but maybe not. I would love to know the answer.
Thank you for taking the time to chime in on this subject. Very cool 😎

When a camera is on a copy stand shutter speed doesn’t really matter since nothing is moving. I shoot aperture priority because the shutter speed is just a fallout based on getting the aperture right. Under bright lights you’d really have to screw up to have it be so slow that any issues could crop up as a result.

“Manual” refers just to shutter, aperture, and ISO. White balance is separate, and surely they use a manual white balance tuned to their lights instead of an auto setting; this is unrelated to shooting in “manual.” For what it’s worth, if I ever shoot away from my main office I’ll redo the white balance calibration just in case there’s a change in color due to some amount of outside lights I can’t control or even a colored light reflection off a wall.

A great point I didn’t consider. Thank you for that, Jeremy.

airplanenut

@FullHorn said:
When you have the camera tethered to a computer with a live view on a large monitor and the ability to move the lights around and adjust numerous settings. It is amazing the different looks you can get from a coin. I find the "glamour shot"
and discard the rest. I do this with every new coin.

Some days I think I have stumbled upon a great combination of settings and start shooting all my favorite coins again.
Only to find out after doing a comparison that the new shots are no better than the old ones.

PCGS does a fantastic job. I probably spent hours on this coin.

A coin like that is one of the areas TV really shines because they can shoot raw. Somewhat matte lustre that illuminates in a ring combined with color that comes out when well illuminated makes an accurate shot difficult without direct light, which a slab gets in the way of. Raw, just put the light top down over the coin and it’s a cinch.

BryceM

It's difficult (but perhaps occasionally possible) for the best photographers to compete with coins that aren't hiding behind plastic. It limits some of what you can do with the lighting.

The PCGS photo team does an outstanding job, especially within the time and efficiency constraints they surely have to deal with.

This is one good example of what I'm talking about. In-hand, this coin has some color if you really hit it just right with the light source. Behind plastic, it's almost impossible to bring this out completely without glare. I don't really see the coin as having so much color as is depicted in the TrueView.... much closer to what I was able to capture, but that's just the limitations we are left to deal with.

With experience, you can gain an intuitive sense of the way the coin will probably look in-hand. Heritage, Stacks, Legend, PCGS, and GC all use a different setup, but they're each reasonably consistent and it's usually pretty easy to figure out what it might really look like. Quite a few dealers match this level of quality and consistency too. Others..... well, it's not always easy to know what will show up in the mail.