Ran across an interesting "George Soley" / Lord's Prayer medal . . . . .

ZoidMeister

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One of the many exonumia "rabbit holes" I have found myself falling into has been the World of the tiny Lord's Prayer / George Soley medals. Picking up, appreciating, and researching these really does take one into an "Alice in Wonderland" world.

Documentation on these seems to be fragmented according to all I have read here Their creation seems to be spread across much of the 1800's. I don't even know 1/10th of what more knowledgeable members here know about these, and research really is a "one pill makes you smaller" experience.

Above is a Lord's Prayer medal that I found unusual and intriguing. In my research, I have seen lots of Washington's, Columbian, and Architectural obverses. This one however, is the first I have encountered.

At the top of the undated obverse is The All Seeing Eye - a familiar device found across much of our currency from the founding of our nation up until today.

In the center an image of the Triple Link Fellowship - a familiar logo for the IOOF or International Order of Odd Fellows.

At the bottom of the obverse is the Skull and Crossbones - a familiar device of pirates, poisons, "memento-mori" themes, and some attribution to the "Illuminatti" . . . . .

This piece has a weakly struck reverse and some environmental damage, but most of the original gold gilt remains.

I am interested in finding out more about this piece. Has anyone seen it's equal?

Z
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MWallace

I have about a couple of dozen Soley and similar medals but I don't have this one. Information is hard to come by. Congrats on a cool piece.

NumisOxide

Never seen that one before! Cool piece!!

ZoidMeister

Maybe @tokenpro is familiar with this one?

Z

ZoidMeister

@Zoins ?

Zoins

Great medalette @ZoidMeister! Nice pickup!

I love the IOOF and skull themes!

This looks like what I like to call a "Type 3" Lord's Prayer Medal die. Here's one of mine with this die.

NumisOxide

@Zoins said:
Great medalette @ZoidMeister! Nice pickup!

I love the IOOF and skull themes!

This looks like what I like to call a "Type 3" Lord's Prayer Medal die. Here's one of mine with this die.

Never seen that design neither. Cool!

Zoins

@coinJP said:

@Zoins said:
Great medalette @ZoidMeister! Nice pickup!

I love the IOOF and skull themes!

This looks like what I like to call a "Type 3" Lord's Prayer Medal die. Here's one of mine with this die.

Never seen that design neither. Cool!

Thanks! There's so many designs that we really need a catalog!

See more here:

• George Bache Soley Medallettes and Tokens
• George Soley Medals

NumisOxide

@Zoins said:

@coinJP said:

@Zoins said:
Great medalette @ZoidMeister! Nice pickup!

I love the IOOF and skull themes!

This looks like what I like to call a "Type 3" Lord's Prayer Medal die. Here's one of mine with this die.

Never seen that design neither. Cool!

Thanks! There's so many designs that we really need a catalog!

See more here:

• George Bache Soley Medallettes and Tokens
• George Soley Medals

Great! Thanks for the link. BTW, Is there a reference book for these?

Zoins

@coinJP said:

@Zoins said:

@coinJP said:

@Zoins said:
Great medalette @ZoidMeister! Nice pickup!

I love the IOOF and skull themes!

This looks like what I like to call a "Type 3" Lord's Prayer Medal die. Here's one of mine with this die.

Never seen that design neither. Cool!

Thanks! There's so many designs that we really need a catalog!

See more here:

• George Bache Soley Medallettes and Tokens
• George Soley Medals

Great! Thanks for the link. BTW, Is there a reference book for these?

Not yet, but maybe...

ZoidMeister

@Zoins said:

@coinJP said:

@Zoins said:
Great medalette @ZoidMeister! Nice pickup!

I love the IOOF and skull themes!

This looks like what I like to call a "Type 3" Lord's Prayer Medal die. Here's one of mine with this die.

Never seen that design neither. Cool!

Thanks! There's so many designs that we really need a catalog!

See more here:

• George Bache Soley Medallettes and Tokens
• George Soley Medals

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Wow, following the links, leading to other links, I feel like I've gone from a "rabbit hole" into the Labyrinth . . . . .

Thanks for the reference. I've got my reading cut out for me.

Z

EXOJUNKIE

If the piece in the OP is slabbed by NGC, what did they attribute it as and what is the grade? 🤔

ZoidMeister

I see from the links that I should have also tagged @fretboard for his input.

@EXOJUNKIE said:
If the piece in the OP is slabbed by NGC, what did they attribute it as and what is the grade? 🤔

Not slabbed by anyone but me. I'm looking for attribution, and this one probably would never straight grade due to its ED . . . . . (environmental damage).

Z

ZoidMeister

@GoldenEgg , this looks right up your alley as well . . . . .

Z

Zoins

@ZoidMeister You've correctly identified @GoldenEgg and @fretboard as fellow Soley collectors! Welcome to the club

Zoins

Here are two of my favorite George Soley Lord's Prayer medals in silver and brass:

GoldenEgg

@ZoidMeister @Zoins
I go back and forth on the Soley attributions. Whenever a piece is attributed to him, including when I make the attribution(!), it isn’t based on contemporary record. From what I can tell, even when the experts make the call, it is based on speculation or hearsay. Of course, when the size, style, color, collar, reverse die, and the existence of the Lord’s Prayer are all right, it can almost certainly be attributed to him.

A comprehensive die study, including die state, die pairing, and even the style of collar used, would help our understanding and could be conclusive in some cases.

I’ve seen a couple others of this exact design, all holed.

ZoidMeister

@GoldenEgg said:
@ZoidMeister @Zoins
I go back and forth on the Soley attributions. Whenever a piece is attributed to him, including when I make the attribution(!), it isn’t based on contemporary record. From what I can tell, even when the experts make the call, it is based on speculation or hearsay. Of course, when the size, style, color, collar, reverse die, and the existence of the Lord’s Prayer are all right, it can almost certainly be attributed to him.

A comprehensive die study, including die state, die pairing, and even the style of collar used, would help our understanding and could be conclusive in some cases.

I’ve seen a couple others of this exact design, all holed.

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I appreciate your taking the time to take a look at this piece. I tend to be a nontraditional collector in the most extreme sense of the term. I will scroll through hundreds of listings from obscure sales sites until something grabs my attention.

If the price is within reason, I'll grab it not knowing what I don't know.

This was one of those purchases.

Sometimes I end up with something really amazing. Other times I have a pretty bauble. Either way, I'm happy.

Z

Zoins

@GoldenEgg It's certainly true that there's very little information on George Soley and many of his contemporaries. When I first started collecting Soley's Lord's Prayer Medalettes, I was told they weren't worth collecting. Not worth collecting often goes with not worth researching and no information.

For the larger 25mm medals, it's been known that similar medals had been struck by George Bache Soley and Peter Lewis Krider, both of whom signed some, but not all, of their work. Attributing the non-signed pieces is a challenge. Of interest, Roger has even found evidence that Krider had pieces struck at the US Mint.

For the 13mm medalettes, it's been harder to find information... until now! Some smaller medalettes have a very different style than Soley's so it's easy to tell them apart. Others, like some 25mm medals have a very similar style. To me, the IOOF and Trenton Battle Monument have a similar style to Soley but the LPM die isn't mated with a known Soley die (e.g. God and Our Country), so it's always been a guess.

Now however, I'd like to put forth that these two pieces and any others with this LPM die may be done by John H. Diehl. I found the following 1900 IOOF badge on WorthPoint:

1900 I.O.O.F. National Convention Richmond, VA Sept. 17-22, 1900 - by John H. Diehl

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ioof-odd-fellows-national-convention-1801535282

Zoins

Here's an interesting 1900 I.O.O.F. Odd Fellows Initiatory Degree White Silk Banner, which is from 1900, the same year as @ZoidMeister's medalette.

https://www.onesourceauctions.com/auction-lot/antique-c-1900-i-o-o-f-odd-fellows-initiatory-deg_AE64B87966

Antique C. 1900 I.O.O.F. Odd Fellows Initiatory Degree White Silk Banner

Description: Antique silk banner flag used by the International Order of Odd Fellows. Made of creamy white silk with a pink cotton back, yellow-gold filigree braid trim and wood-capped fringe tassels. embroidery work with some silk applique depicting the symbols of the Initiatory Degree: the All-Seeing Eye, 3-Link Chain, a Scythe, and a Skull and Crossbones. It has been attached to a brass rod for hanging. [...]

Dimensions: 34" long x 19" wide

Condition: Good Condition with some stains and a tear on the top right corner

ZoidMeister

The photos I first posted aren't the best, especially of the reverse. Here are some better photos, I hope.

Z

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Zoins

@ZoidMeister said:
The photos I first posted aren't the best, especially of the reverse. Here are some better photos, I hope.

Z

Nice photos!

Hmm. As much as I'd like to say mine and yours have the same reverse die, they do look a bit different. The few words I looked at look the same, but yours seems to have an extra ring inside the edge detail. Perhaps just in the photos?

ZoidMeister

@Zoins said:
@GoldenEgg It's certainly true that there's very little information on George Soley and many of his contemporaries. When I first started collecting Soley's Lord's Prayer Medalettes, I was told they weren't worth collecting. Not worth collecting often goes with not worth researching and no information.

For the larger 25mm medals, it's been known that similar medals had been struck by George Bache Soley and Peter Lewis Krider, both of whom signed their work. Roger has even found evidence that Krider had pieces struck at the US Mint.

For the 13mm medalettes, it's been harder to find information... until now! Some smaller medalettes have a very different style than Soley's so it's easy to tell them apart. Others, like some 25mm medals have a very similar style. To me, the IOOF and Trenton Battle Monument have a similar style to Soley but the LPM die isn't mated with a known Soley die (e.g. God and Our Country), so it's always been a guess.

Now however, I'd like to put forth that these two pieces and any others with this LPM die may be done by John H. Diehl. I found the following 1900 IOOF badge on WorthPoint:

1900 I.O.O.F. National Convention Richmond, VA Sept. 17-22, 1900 - by John H. Diehl

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ioof-odd-fellows-national-convention-1801535282

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The WorthPoint write up notes that medal has a "brass coin" inserted into the copper iron cross.

Might it be possible that Diehl made the iron cross and ribbon to encase one of Soley's medalettes?

Z

Zoins

@ZoidMeister said:

@Zoins said:
@GoldenEgg It's certainly true that there's very little information on George Soley and many of his contemporaries. When I first started collecting Soley's Lord's Prayer Medalettes, I was told they weren't worth collecting. Not worth collecting often goes with not worth researching and no information.

For the larger 25mm medals, it's been known that similar medals had been struck by George Bache Soley and Peter Lewis Krider, both of whom signed their work. Roger has even found evidence that Krider had pieces struck at the US Mint.

For the 13mm medalettes, it's been harder to find information... until now! Some smaller medalettes have a very different style than Soley's so it's easy to tell them apart. Others, like some 25mm medals have a very similar style. To me, the IOOF and Trenton Battle Monument have a similar style to Soley but the LPM die isn't mated with a known Soley die (e.g. God and Our Country), so it's always been a guess.

Now however, I'd like to put forth that these two pieces and any others with this LPM die may be done by John H. Diehl. I found the following 1900 IOOF badge on WorthPoint:

1900 I.O.O.F. National Convention Richmond, VA Sept. 17-22, 1900 - by John H. Diehl

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ioof-odd-fellows-national-convention-1801535282

The WorthPoint write up notes that medal has a "brass coin" inserted into the copper iron cross.

Might it be possible that Diehl made the iron cross and ribbon to encase one of Soley's medalettes?

Z

It could be as Soley was active at the time and Dick Johnson indicates John H. Diehl was not active, but Diehl was a die sinker so it would be interesting if he used someone else's medals. It could be that someone who is not a die sinker had taken over Diehl's company by that point and needed Soley to make the medals. It would be interesting to compare these to Diehl's other work of the period. Both were in Philadelphia as well.

I have wondered why this reverse die style would exist if this was Soley's work as he had other dies used with his expo pieces and this die style isn't generally associated with the expo pieces. The more common expo piece prayer dies were used to at least 1901 and the pieces here are from 1900 and 1893. It could be that Soley used this die style for contract work he did for others like John Diehl?

More investigation to be had

Here's the auction description:

IOOF ODD FELLOWS NATIONAL CONVENTION RICHMOND VA 1900 MEDAL/BADGE

Offered for sale, a rare IOOF Odd Fellows National Convention from Richmond, Virginia dated Sept. 17th-22nd 1900. The medal measures 3 1/2" long. It was made by J.H. Diehl out of Philadelphia, PA. At the bottom of the ribbon is an copper iron cross shaped medal with a brass coin inserted. The coin has the ALL SEEING EYE, FLT (Friendship, Loyalty, Trust) over a Skull & Crossbones. The reverse of the coin has the Lords Prayer

ZoidMeister

So, after I posted the original medalette in the first post here and elsewhere, I was contacted by a guy who had a "few" Lord's Prayer tiny tokens. Many of them look like they are cut from the same mold as the George Soley pieces above.

He sent me photos of everything he owned with prices. They numbered over two dozen pieces.

So I picked out the 10 or 12 I thought I could afford and let him know that I was interested in those. He indicated in our early correspondences that he wanted to sell whatever I didn't take on fleaBay.

After I told him what I was really interested in, he said, "Why don't you take the whole lot of these for $70 more . . . . "

How could I say no?

Anyway, they arrived yesterday. I have a LOT of photo taking and cataloging to do, but here are six of the first pieces I unwrapped and did a photo session with. There are a LOT more to come . . . . .

Z
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jesbroken

I have this piece which I do not think to be George Soley's but is interesting and as it had the US Mint on it, I bought it.
An 1832 US Mint with Lord's Prayer on reverse. It was minted in the 1890's and according to Mike Locke(whom I do not know) it is a Lord's Prayer Round 1, whatever that means. Per the seller It is believed to be made of copper with a thin plating of high karat yellow gold. As it is a little smaller than a dime there might be just a wee bit of gold in this tiny medal/token. Any knowledge of this item I would appreciate details. Thanks,
Jim

Zoins

@ZoidMeister said:
So, after I posted the original medalette in the first post here and elsewhere, I was contacted by a guy who had a "few" Lord's Prayer tiny tokens. Many of them look like they are cut from the same mold as the George Soley pieces above.

He sent me photos of everything he owned with prices. They numbered over two dozen pieces.

So I picked out the 10 or 12 I thought I could afford and let him know that I was interested in those. He indicated in our early correspondences that he wanted to sell whatever I didn't take on fleaBay.

After I told him what I was really interested in, he said, "Why don't you take the whole lot of these for $70 more . . . . "

How could I say no?

Anyway, they arrived yesterday. I have a LOT of photo taking and cataloging to do, but here are six of the first pieces I unwrapped and did a photo session with. There are a LOT more to come . . . . .

Z

Congrats! What a great collection!

I love the Hudson-Fulton Centennial piece!

Zoins

@jesbroken said:
I have this piece which I do not think to be George Soley's but is interesting and as it had the US Mint on it, I bought it.
An 1832 US Mint with Lord's Prayer on reverse. It was minted in the 1890's and according to Mike Locke(whom I do not know) it is a Lord's Prayer Round 1, whatever that means. Per the seller It is believed to be made of copper with a thin plating of high karat yellow gold. As it is a little smaller than a dime there might be just a wee bit of gold in this tiny medal/token. Any knowledge of this item I would appreciate details. Thanks,
Jim

This piece is commonly attributed to George Soley. It seems to share the reverse die with this "God and Our Country" piece.

jesbroken

@Zoins
This piece is commonly attributed to George Soley. It seems to share the reverse die with this "God and Our Country" piece.

Thank you, I have noticed many on ebay, etsy and other auction sites have the word "Which" rather than "Who". I have read that these are not Soley medals, but not sure. Like others, I wish there was a book available that covered these, because some are truly neat.
Jim

ZoidMeister

@jesbroken ,

The U.S. Mint strike is one of the more fairly common pieces. The collection I acquired has an "unusual" version of that one.

This little strike is unholed . . . . .

Z
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GoldenEgg

@Zoins said:

@jesbroken said:
I have this piece which I do not think to be George Soley's but is interesting and as it had the US Mint on it, I bought it.
An 1832 US Mint with Lord's Prayer on reverse. It was minted in the 1890's and according to Mike Locke(whom I do not know) it is a Lord's Prayer Round 1, whatever that means. Per the seller It is believed to be made of copper with a thin plating of high karat yellow gold. As it is a little smaller than a dime there might be just a wee bit of gold in this tiny medal/token. Any knowledge of this item I would appreciate details. Thanks,
Jim

This piece is commonly attributed to George Soley. It seems to share the reverse die with this "God and Our Country" piece.

Actually there are differences, which would lead me to conclude that those are different reverse dies.

tokenpro

As noted before, Schwaab Stamp & Stencil Co. of Milwaukee made the majority of the bi-metal badges that contain a small center section often with the Lord's Prayer on the reverse. Schwaab S&S was reaching its prime after the turn of the last century when Soley was fading out. Schwaab S&S was a skilled die sinking shop fully capable of making their own product so there is minimal chance at best that they purchased anything from Soley. Both Schwaab S&S and Osborne of Cincinnati made small signed Lord's Prayer pieces in the early 20th Century. A number of pieces quickly attributed to Soley in fact are not or lack any credible evidence to cement the tie-in. Imitation is as common in exonumia as it elsewhere (see: Billikens, swastikas,, municipal good fors, wood as a planchet, etc.)

MWallace

@ZoidMeister said:
So, after I posted the original medalette in the first post here and elsewhere, I was contacted by a guy who had a "few" Lord's Prayer tiny tokens. Many of them look like they are cut from the same mold as the George Soley pieces above.

He sent me photos of everything he owned with prices. They numbered over two dozen pieces.

So I picked out the 10 or 12 I thought I could afford and let him know that I was interested in those. He indicated in our early correspondences that he wanted to sell whatever I didn't take on fleaBay.

After I told him what I was really interested in, he said, "Why don't you take the whole lot of these for $70 more . . . . "

How could I say no?

Anyway, they arrived yesterday. I have a LOT of photo taking and cataloging to do, but here are six of the first pieces I unwrapped and did a photo session with. There are a LOT more to come . . . . .

Z

Looks like a great collection you picked up.

ZoidMeister

@MWallace said:

@ZoidMeister said:
So, after I posted the original medalette in the first post here and elsewhere, I was contacted by a guy who had a "few" Lord's Prayer tiny tokens. Many of them look like they are cut from the same mold as the George Soley pieces above.

He sent me photos of everything he owned with prices. They numbered over two dozen pieces.

So I picked out the 10 or 12 I thought I could afford and let him know that I was interested in those. He indicated in our early correspondences that he wanted to sell whatever I didn't take on fleaBay.

After I told him what I was really interested in, he said, "Why don't you take the whole lot of these for $70 more . . . . "

How could I say no?

Anyway, they arrived yesterday. I have a LOT of photo taking and cataloging to do, but here are six of the first pieces I unwrapped and did a photo session with. There are a LOT more to come . . . . .

Z

Looks like a great collection you picked up.

That's not even half of it. I'm hoping to get the rest photographed and posted up soon.

Z

MWallace

@ZoidMeister said:
@jesbroken ,

The U.S. Mint strike is one of the more fairly common pieces. The collection I acquired has an "unusual" version of that one.

This little strike is unholed . . . . .

Z
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The unholed pieces are tougher to find than the holed pieces.

Zoins

@GoldenEgg said:

@Zoins said:

@jesbroken said:
I have this piece which I do not think to be George Soley's but is interesting and as it had the US Mint on it, I bought it.
An 1832 US Mint with Lord's Prayer on reverse. It was minted in the 1890's and according to Mike Locke(whom I do not know) it is a Lord's Prayer Round 1, whatever that means. Per the seller It is believed to be made of copper with a thin plating of high karat yellow gold. As it is a little smaller than a dime there might be just a wee bit of gold in this tiny medal/token. Any knowledge of this item I would appreciate details. Thanks,
Jim

This piece is commonly attributed to George Soley. It seems to share the reverse die with this "God and Our Country" piece.

Actually there are differences, which would lead me to conclude that those are different reverse dies.

It could be. I’m hedging because of the photos.

The words look similar enough to me that I think they are done by the same hand and potentially the same hub.

jesbroken

I've got a George Washington, God and Our Country with The Lord's Prayer on the reverse that has a little verdigris on it. That I will probably soak for a few months in mineral oil. I've been reading several posts in this medals regard fro a few years now and do truly enjoy them. May be just the start of some new fun what future years I have. Look forward to it.
Jim

Zoins

@MWallace said:

@ZoidMeister said:
@jesbroken ,

The U.S. Mint strike is one of the more fairly common pieces. The collection I acquired has an "unusual" version of that one.

This little strike is unholed . . . . .

Z

The unholed pieces are tougher to find than the holed pieces.

Agreed. The holed ones with original ribbons or stick pins aren’t so easy to find either.

Zoins

@tokenpro said:
As noted before, Schwaab Stamp & Stencil Co. of Milwaukee made the majority of the bi-metal badges that contain a small center section often with the Lord's Prayer on the reverse. Schwaab S&S was reaching its prime after the turn of the last century when Soley was fading out. Schwaab S&S was a skilled die sinking shop fully capable of making their own product so there is minimal chance at best that they purchased anything from Soley. Both Schwaab S&S and Osborne of Cincinnati made small signed Lord's Prayer pieces in the early 20th Century. A number of pieces quickly attributed to Soley in fact are not or lack any credible evidence to cement the tie-in. Imitation is as common in exonumia as it elsewhere (see: Billikens, swastikas,, municipal good fors, wood as a planchet, etc.)

The Andrew Schwaab pieces with the Lord’s Prayer seem to be pretty distinctive from Soley’s pieces in my opinion. To me, it’s clear these were made by different people. Schwaab was also based in Milwaukee which is pretty far from Soley’s home of Philadelphia.

The John H. Diehl bimetallic badges are a bit trickier. Diehl was based in Philadelphia like Soley and these pieces look much more like Soley’s work in my opinion. I’m interested in finding more of Diehl’s period work. I think some of Soley’s larger 25mm medals can look similar to those from Peter Lewis Krider, also of Philadelphia.

jesbroken

Okay, Okay, which one of you guys is gonna write the book?
Jim