Has anyone had cards come back as trimmed, cracked and resubmitted elsewhere?

NeverSawMantle

I recently sent SGC four vintage cards that I examined, head to toe. One a 1969 Topps Baseball (expected to get 8, at the very least) and a 1976 Topps Football (no less than 7, good chance at 8). Both came back as Trimmed.

A 1979 Topps Hockey, which seemed to be at least a 6 or 7 came back as a 3.5.

A 1956 Topps baseball came back a 5, which was what I expected, though hoped for a six.

Is it worth it to crack trimmed out and submit to another company other than PSA? Specifically, the 1969 Topps baseball?

Let me know your thoughts. Super bummed. Put a lot of money into these.

DBesse27

Has anybody ever done that? Of course.

If you know the cards are trimmed, because experts determined so, is it ethical to try to “sneak” them into another company’s holder? Not at all.

Edit to add: I get that you “put a lot of money into these.” It’s a real bummer, but you’re not the first to invest in cards that turned out to be altered. Passing the buck won’t make things right.

NeverSawMantle

I get what you are saying from an ethical standpoint. I’m not trying to pass the buck - I don’t like unscrupulous characters in the hobby either. I just sent the 76 back to the original auction house for a refund. Still out $295, plus postage on that.

But I’m quite sure the 69 is trimmed. I ordered a loupe to take a closer look this weekend.

Maybe I had the grader of doom/death.

miwlvrn

Not on trimmed; but, when items have come back ungraded w/ either minsize or miscut, then yes, plenty of success with resub. Therefore, before considering resubbing, confirm for yourself if it was actually trimmed, or if it is possibly a miscut instance that was called a trim once but may just as easily could have been MC as well. If truly MC instead of trimmed, then eventual grading may have a slim chance at being possible and would then depend on how many times you'd be willing to front the cost of grading over and over until it was slabbed.

Lastly, you do always have the option of having it sealed in a graded holder w/ a label that says Authentic-Altered.

NeverSawMantle

Correction: I meant to say the card doesn’t appear in any way, shape or form trimmed.

NeverSawMantle

@miwlvrn said:
Not on trimmed; but, when items have come back ungraded w/ either minsize or miscut, then yes, plenty of success with resub. Therefore, before considering resubbing, confirm for yourself if it was actually trimmed, or if it is possibly a miscut instance that was called a trim once but may just as easily could have been MC as well. If truly MC instead of trimmed, then eventual grading may have a slim chance at being possible and would then depend on how many times you'd be willing to front the cost of grading over and over until it was slabbed.

Lastly, you do always have the option of having it sealed in a graded holder w/ a label that says Authentic-Altered.

@miwlvrn said:
Not on trimmed; but, when items have come back ungraded w/ either minsize or miscut, then yes, plenty of success with resub. Therefore, before considering resubbing, confirm for yourself if it was actually trimmed, or if it is possibly a miscut instance that was called a trim once but may just as easily could have been MC as well. If truly MC instead of trimmed, then eventual grading may have a slim chance at being possible and would then depend on how many times you'd be willing to front the cost of grading over and over until it was slabbed.

Lastly, you do always have the option of having it sealed in a graded holder w/ a label that says Authentic-Altered.

@miwlvrn said:
Not on trimmed; but, when items have come back ungraded w/ either minsize or miscut, then yes, plenty of success with resub. Therefore, before considering resubbing, confirm for yourself if it was actually trimmed, or if it is possibly a miscut instance that was called a trim once but may just as easily could have been MC as well. If truly MC instead of trimmed, then eventual grading may have a slim chance at being possible and would then depend on how many times you'd be willing to front the cost of grading over and over until it was slabbed.

Lastly, you do always have the option of having it sealed in a graded holder w/ a label that says Authentic-Altered.

It came back authentic/slabbed, but on paperwork, they said trimmed.

I talked to that auction house, because we actually talked about the card while it was up for auction. He said he was going to think about what we can do over the weekend. I’d be willing to crack it and send it somewhere else, but only after looking more closely this weekend. Perhaps there is something I’m missing.

Thanks for your feedback. Sincerely appreciate it.

beachbumcollecting

honestly trimmed doesn't always mean trimmed. if it is obvious then trying to sneak it buy is not right but take this scenario

a couple examples

1.) a card that came out of an originally collected set that went through this process : was an sgc 7 then a psa 5 then an sgc trimmed then a psa 6? is it trimmed? no f'ing way

2.)another that was a psa 5 then psa altered stock then psa min size then psa trimmed? is it trimmed? I am leaning to I don't know but that I should have left it alone! will probably take one more trip and whatever is next will be what I go with once I have concensus. at this point I am leaning to the card is small and was let through the first time

3) card graded sgc 7, cracked and surface looks like it has lost some gloss. it was probably cleaned or in a screw down, not sure. sent to psa twice for confirmation as not sure(screw down damage is very inconsistent with if they grade or not in my experience) and received altered stock. card now sits in an sgc A

thehallmark

I've subbed bulk junk wax after case rips and had commons deemed trimmed. Resub those shorties for 10s was all just part of the routine. It all just depends on the grader and the day.

RufussCkingston

I was going to say that is what BGS, CSG, and SGC are for, but you got hit by SGC, so they must be really bad! I guess next try CSG since i assume they are not worth $200+ submissions.

I would measure them to see how far "min size" they are! Anything more than 1.5/64 (3/128) short is really short.

This ruler is your freind... https://www.amazon.com/Big-Horn-19206-STAINLESS-Conversion/dp/B01AJHTHKC

DBesse27

@thehallmark said:
I've subbed bulk junk wax after case rips and had commons deemed trimmed. Resub those shorties for 10s was all just part of the routine. It all just depends on the grader and the day.

Those short junk wax pills came back “evidence of trimming”? Or do you mean they came back “min size req”?

thedutymon11

Morning,

Back in the day I bought a 88 Fleer Basketball Wax Box from Steve (BBCE FASC), in a group rip. Ripped it and found about 100 cards I sent to PSA. Month later sub pops, 60+ are marked EOT! I raised a fuss, and screamed loudly on the Boards, started threads calling them out, and got a Time out from Jackie.

So I sent a Letter (Yes, a Letter) directly to Joe Orlando, and because I had screamed so much, he called me personally and agreed to have them looked at again. They did and then their were 0 (Zero) EOT! But they still managed to screw me as they graded most of them as NM-MT 8's, which at the time weren't worth the grading fees on commons! I cracked about 20-25 and sent them in another sub and got a lot of 9's and a couple 10's!

So For me I take any PSA EOT with a grain of salt......I just don't buy it! I've cracked & subbed at least 20-30 cards that went from EOT all the way to GEM MINT 10's!

YeeHaw!

Neil

GreenSneakers

If you know it’s trimmed, of course it is unethical to try to get it slabbed. But if you honestly don’t know, then I see no problem sending it in again for a second opinion.

AANV

@thedutymon11 said:
Morning,

Back in the day I bought a 88 Fleer Basketball Wax Box from Steve (BBCE FASC), in a group rip. Ripped it and found about 100 cards I sent to PSA. Month later sub pops, 60+ are marked EOT! I raised a fuss, and screamed loudly on the Boards, started threads calling them out, and got a Time out from Jackie.

So I sent a Letter (Yes, a Letter) directly to Joe Orlando, and because I had screamed so much, he called me personally and agreed to have them looked at again. They did and then their were 0 (Zero) EOT! But they still managed to screw me as they graded most of them as NM-MT 8's, which at the time weren't worth the grading fees on commons! I cracked about 20-25 and sent them in another sub and got a lot of 9's and a couple 10's!

So For me I take any PSA EOT with a grain of salt......I just don't buy it! I've cracked & subbed at least 20-30 cards that went from EOT all the way to GEM MINT 10's!

YeeHaw!

Neil

We have to watch what we say on these boards so that we don't ruffle any feathers, but let's just say that no grade is final. There is no law that prevents a card from being submitted any number of times.

Porkins

I have the same experience as some of those above. Every single card in my collection that wasn’t purchased slabbed was pulled from unopened by me, and I’ve gotten quite a few EOT from PSA and even a couple from BGS. And if I recall correctly there were some Evidence of recoloroing (if such a thing exists, or Altered and there was a post-it saying recolored) on some ‘85 Topps football. I agree with what GreenSneakers said above.

thehallmark

@DBesse27 said:

@thehallmark said:
I've subbed bulk junk wax after case rips and had commons deemed trimmed. Resub those shorties for 10s was all just part of the routine. It all just depends on the grader and the day.

Those short junk wax pills came back “evidence of trimming”? Or do you mean they came back “min size req”?

I've had a lot get min sized, fewer marked trimmed/altered. But again - when you are the one ripping and subbing for $6 it doesn't really sting as much. I always KNEW they were wrong, and I never had to resub a card more than once for them to get it right.

blurryface

couple things to remember. tpg’ing is subjective and only an opinion.

the more important question is how sure are you that its trimmed? do you agree w their opinion? if so, passing it off or attempting to sneak one past a different goalie isnt the right answer.

if you are unqualified to assess or are unsure in any way, then resubmit. as many of stated, myself included, have had cards ripped straight from the pack ourselves deemed trimmed. and like many others have had to resub another time or two. if its a card im passionate about, ill let it ride 3 times. after that, i consider it a strike out. but, ive also hit a couple home runs after being down two strikes. of course its been a while for me. and we are talking the days of $10-$50 attempts vs $200 attempts.

maybe post a pic here? there are some pretty good sleuths here that can tell ya simply by a decent scan.

best of luck either way in coming to the appropriate solution.

thenextlevel

Once I submitted cards that were pack pulled by me, and a few came back trimmed. I called complete BS, so I cracked and resubmitted to the same company, and all were graded. Must have been a new hire that first time.....

jimq

If you can get your hands on a good scanner and scan at high resolution you can usually tell the difference between trimmed edges and not trimmed, especially if you can compare it to another card in the same set. The cut just looks different.

In an SGC video not loong ago, they showed a Mantle card getting graded, and creases you couldn't see showed up in their grading machine. Maybe it shows the card under magnification?

And to stay on topic, I once bought a 71 clemente that was rejected by PSA as recolored. I couldn't find any recoloring under black lite or by looking at the edges. It's in an SGC 7 holder now.

Nobody's perfect and maybe they err on the side of caution.

BaltimoreYankee

@DBesse27 said:

If you know the cards are trimmed, because experts determined so, is it ethical to try to “sneak” them into another company’s holder? Not at all.

Yeah but those 'experts' are often wrong. I had a beautiful 1975 Topps mini Nolan Ryan that I pulled from a pack (from a BBCE sourced box) that came back evidence of trimming. After working with PSA, they took another look and graded it 8.5.

aro67

If I don't believe a card is trimmed I send it in 2 or 3 times until it gets a grade. If it comes back trimmed again I sell it on ebay as trimmed with the PSA label of trimmed.

NeverSawMantle

@aro67 said:
If I don't believe a card is trimmed I send it in 2 or 3 times until it gets a grade. If it comes back trimmed again I sell it on ebay as trimmed with the PSA label of trimmed.

I looked at the card through a loupe for hours this weekend after cracking it out. There is absolutely zero evidence of trimming. It’s slightly undersized, and I did some research and found that 69 Topps baseball had presentation sets that were undersized. At least, that’s what I found. I’m going to keep submitting, possibly two more times. If not, I’ll do what you did. Thanks.

NeverSawMantle

@BaltimoreYankee said:

@DBesse27 said:

If you know the cards are trimmed, because experts determined so, is it ethical to try to “sneak” them into another company’s holder? Not at all.

Yeah but those 'experts' are often wrong. I had a beautiful 1975 Topps mini Nolan Ryan that I pulled from a pack (from a BBCE sourced box) that came back evidence of trimming. After working with PSA, they took another look and graded it 8.5.

This makes me feel better. What is an expert? Some guy making $17 an hour?

NeverSawMantle

@jimq said:
If you can get your hands on a good scanner and scan at high resolution you can usually tell the difference between trimmed edges and not trimmed, especially if you can compare it to another card in the same set. The cut just looks different.

In an SGC video not loong ago, they showed a Mantle card getting graded, and creases you couldn't see showed up in their grading machine. Maybe it shows the card under magnification?

And to stay on topic, I once bought a 71 clemente that was rejected by PSA as recolored. I couldn't find any recoloring under black lite or by looking at the edges. It's in an SGC 7 holder now.

Nobody's perfect and maybe they err on the side of caution.

Definitely not trimmed. Undersized factory cut, far as I can tell. Understand Topps had presentation sets. The fact that this one has a diamond cut makes me believe it may have been one of those. Thanks for your help. Submitting elsewhere!

NeverSawMantle

@blurryface said:
couple things to remember. tpg’ing is subjective and only an opinion.

the more important question is how sure are you that its trimmed? do you agree w their opinion? if so, passing it off or attempting to sneak one past a different goalie isnt the right answer.

if you are unqualified to assess or are unsure in any way, then resubmit. as many of stated, myself included, have had cards ripped straight from the pack ourselves deemed trimmed. and like many others have had to resub another time or two. if its a card im passionate about, ill let it ride 3 times. after that, i consider it a strike out. but, ive also hit a couple home runs after being down two strikes. of course its been a while for me. and we are talking the days of $10-$50 attempts vs $200 attempts.

maybe post a pic here? there are some pretty good sleuths here that can tell ya simply by a decent scan.

best of luck either way in coming to the appropriate solution.

I’d love to post the card, but it’s extremely high value if it isn’t trimmed. I wouldn’t want to let any of the possible graders know that it’s coming through again.

That said,I looked at it under the loupe for hours this weekend. It does not, in any way, appear to be trimmed. It is slightly undersized. Not sure if that’s the a case of it being part of a presentation set?

Thanks for your help!!

NeverSawMantle

@DBesse27 said:
Has anybody ever done that? Of course.

If you know the cards are trimmed, because experts determined so, is it ethical to try to “sneak” them into another company’s holder? Not at all.

Edit to add: I get that you “put a lot of money into these.” It’s a real bummer, but you’re not the first to invest in cards that turned out to be altered. Passing the buck won’t make things right.

Upon further review, I’m not passing the buck. I have done my research, looked at the card for hours under a loupe. Zero evidence of trimming. Slightly undersized. Also found that many cards in the 60s were part of presentation sets and cut smaller.

daltex

This is pretty amusing. A new poster posts that his card received an EOT. He then belittles the graders, claims to have examined his card for hours not finding any evidence of trimming, so he decides that his card belonged to a presentation set which is why it is small. He then decides that posting images of the card for a second opinion here would alert the graders that a suspiciously small, but not trimmed, card was coming back through.

Sigh.

beachbumcollecting

^^ this

NeverSawMantle

@daltex said:
This is pretty amusing. A new poster posts that his card received an EOT. He then belittles the graders, claims to have examined his card for hours not finding any evidence of trimming, so he decides that his card belonged to a presentation set which is why it is small. He then decides that posting images of the card for a second opinion here would alert the graders that a suspiciously small, but not trimmed, card was coming back through.

Sigh.

I haven’t asked any questions or raised any points that others on this board have brought up in the past. My diagnoses were not presented to be iron clad, but rather, questions.

A lot of people on this board speak of getting the wrong grader on the wrong day because grading is very subjective. I was wrong to say that they didn’t care because of the paltry sum they are paid.

As a seasoned collector, do you know about presentation sets? If so, I sincerely ask you to fill me in? Is it possible that this card is from one?

NeverSawMantle

@beachbumcollecting said:
^^ this

Glad I could amuse you both.

Bosox1976

Presentation sets are super rare. While it is possible that you have a card from one, they are generally kept together or graded out. Selling singles raw would be pretty rare (at least I have not seen any advertised as from Presentation Set).

I have bought a couple of partial sets, after they had been cherry picked by earlier owners. Some cards graded, most were sent back as Min Size (not EOT).

Most of the short cards out there are trimmed, then some factory short, then wayyyyyyyy down the scale of probability are presentation sets. Not saying you don't have that, just that they probably make up less than 1 or 2% of the short cards out there. Good luck either way.

AFLfan

@NeverSawMantle said:

I was wrong to say that they didn’t care because of the paltry sum they are paid.

Yes, you were. There is a big difference between subjectivity among honest people and what you suggested.

handyman

Your card has a greater chance of being trimmed vs being a ultra rare presentation set version. Did you see it come out of a presentation set???? If so I think you can then say it is. Good luck

NeverSawMantle

@Bosox1976 said:
Presentation sets are super rare. While it is possible that you have a card from one, they are generally kept together or graded out. Selling singles raw would be pretty rare (at least I have not seen any advertised as from Presentation Set).

I have bought a couple of partial sets, after they had been cherry picked by earlier owners. Some cards graded, most were sent back as Min Size (not EOT).

Most of the short cards out there are trimmed, then some factory short, then wayyyyyyyy down the scale of probability are presentation sets. Not saying you don't have that, just that they probably make up less than 1 or 2% of the short cards out there. Good luck either way.

Thanks for the valuable insight. Not exactly what I wanted to hear, but what can you do. I’ll spin the wheel then retire from this specific quest, as much as it may pain me.

NeverSawMantle

@handyman said:
Your card has a greater chance of being trimmed vs being a ultra rare presentation set version. Did you see it come out of a presentation set???? If so I think you can then say it is. Good luck

Unfortunately, I didn’t witness any such thing. The only saving grace is that it’s the width that’s a little bit short - seems to fall within 1/32. All I can do is send it it and hope for the best. Appreciate your feedback.

NeverSawMantle

@AFLfan said:

@NeverSawMantle said:

I was wrong to say that they didn’t care because of the paltry sum they are paid.

Yes, you were. There is a big difference between subjectivity among honest people and what you suggested.

Agreed. Here to take my lumps. My apologies to anyone who took offense to what I said.

handyman

If you want honest help just post a pic. Measuring is one thing but the visual appearance is another story.

jimq

If you're nervous about showing the card, and since you said it's the width that is short, can you get a good clear scan of the side edges? There's a lot of helpful people here who might be able to save you a few bucks on re-sub fees. With good clear views trimming is pretty easy to spot when compared to factory edges.

daltex

@NeverSawMantle said:

As a seasoned collector, do you know about presentation sets? If so, I sincerely ask you to fill me in? Is it possible that this card is from one?

Yes. Yes. However it is extremely unlikely that the graders at PSA (or whichever service you used) mistook a card from a presentation set for evidence of trimming. PSA has a designation (MINSIZE) for cards that are too small. Those are only charged shipping and insurance. EOT is completely different.

1951WheatiesPremium

@NeverSawMantle

Transparency is key. The best thing you can do is post the card here and get the opinions of folks here. There’s a lot of knowledge on the boards; you may get a hard truth but you’d also potentially get a ringing endorsement. It’s always been rumored and not a stretch to think that some people that work for PSA might look at these boards from time to time and I imagine they too have people whose opinions they respect and information they can glean from these boards. If you feel confident in the card, and are a glass half full guy, you might get a nice buzz about the card instead.

Now, you said it’s potentially a very valuable 1969 Topps card? I once had a dealer tell me there’s more trimmed 1969 Topps cards out there than not, in no small part because the production value was incredibly low that year and so many cards were wildly off center and tilted. So many kids ‘fixed them’ themselves at the time and then subsequently some (or many) unethical folks did the same later producing lots of “skinny” cards.

One of the best things you can do that is easy enough? Buy yourself a cheap PSA graded 1969 COMMON card that fills the space inside the PSA slab and then lay your card on top of it.

I like that ‘69 set myself and threads are better with pics…

Good luck

JoeBanzai

I sent a card in once thinking it was an 8 with a (slim) chance that it could be a 9. Even though the card was well centered with no tilt, it came back as "miscut".

Having some experience in the printing industry, I didn't see how this could even be possible unless the image was distorted. It also measured up perfectly with other raw and graded cards I had.

Cracked it out, and sent it back in and it came back an 8.

_If you want good advice, post photos of the card(s) in question! _

"I’d love to post the card, but it’s extremely high value if it isn’t trimmed. I wouldn’t want to let any of the possible graders know that it’s coming through again."

Graders don't search the message boards to see what might be coming back in for another look, that's a silly statement.

If you want a bunch of random stories and speculation, don't show us what you have.

Personally, I would like the OP in threads like these to be required to supply a photo, without one they are really kind of a waste of time.

Finally, I would suggest to just go ahead and keep submitting them until you get a grade or finally get convinced that the graders are all wrong and give up. It's your time and money.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

NeverSawMantle

Thanks for all of the feedback. I’ve already sent it in. (Did not send to PSA originally because of $$$).

I should have scanned before. Here is the card in question from the auction. Not sure if you can tell much.

1951WheatiesPremium

I think PSA will give you the same answer as SGC though I sincerely hope that I am wrong.

80sOPC

Sounds like a fair and consistent process.

@thedutymon11 said:
Morning,

Back in the day I bought a 88 Fleer Basketball Wax Box from Steve (BBCE FASC), in a group rip. Ripped it and found about 100 cards I sent to PSA. Month later sub pops, 60+ are marked EOT! I raised a fuss, and screamed loudly on the Boards, started threads calling them out, and got a Time out from Jackie.

So I sent a Letter (Yes, a Letter) directly to Joe Orlando, and because I had screamed so much, he called me personally and agreed to have them looked at again. They did and then their were 0 (Zero) EOT! But they still managed to screw me as they graded most of them as NM-MT 8's, which at the time weren't worth the grading fees on commons! I cracked about 20-25 and sent them in another sub and got a lot of 9's and a couple 10's!

So For me I take any PSA EOT with a grain of salt......I just don't buy it! I've cracked & subbed at least 20-30 cards that went from EOT all the way to GEM MINT 10's!

YeeHaw!

Neil

blurryface

trimmed.

handyman

Def not a presentation issue

1951WheatiesPremium

@NeverSawMantle

If you want, you can post the Walter Payton rookie also if you hadn’t sent that one yet. If they’re from the same seller, especially, be leery.

To be clear, no one likes giving someone this news. Whether it’s a new guy or a board veteran. Sucks to get this news, sucks to give this news….sucks, sucks, sucks! And even when everything looks good and measures out? You can still get dinged on a pressed corner or a good recolor job.

If you know the seller personally you could try to get a refund but that can be tough for a variety of reasons - which is also a bitter pill to swallow.

If there’s one lesson, I’d say it’s that you really need to know your stuff to buy higher end raw cards. And even then, it can still happen.

And congrats on the 1956 card (Mantle also, I’d guess, or Mays or Aaron next) and the Gretzky rookie. 😉

Welcome to the highs and lows of collecting!!!

NeverSawMantle

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
@NeverSawMantle

If you want, you can post the Walter Payton rookie also if you hadn’t sent that one yet. If they’re from the same seller, especially, be leery.

To be clear, no one likes giving someone this news. Whether it’s a new guy or a board veteran. Sucks to get this news, sucks to give this news….sucks, sucks, sucks! And even when everything looks good and measures out? You can still get dinged on a pressed corner or a good recolor job.

If you know the seller personally you could try to get a refund but that can be tough for a variety of reasons - which is also a bitter pill to swallow.

If there’s one lesson, I’d say it’s that you really need to know your stuff to buy higher end raw cards. And even then, it can still happen.

And congrats on the 1956 card (Mantle also, I’d guess, or Mays or Aaron next) and the Gretzky rookie. 😉

Welcome to the highs and lows of collecting!!!

Thanks. Excellent guesses!! I’ll be buying all of my raw from Greg Morris from now on. If I can afford to.

I sent the slabbed Payton back, but this was the scan from the eBay auctioneer. I won’t say which one it was. He did respond to my email and said that he’d refund me. He never sent my postage though - so I had to pay for it myself. He also never responded to my message about receiving the card (got it Monday). We shall see.

I also sent in a batch of 45 cards to SGC last week. About half from Greg Morris. Some from other auctions. Nothing I dropped a ton of money on, like the 69 Mantle, but a few that were pretty high. I’d already received news of the trimmings in first batch - so I put cards against cards from the same years. Shouldn’t be any surprises, but who the hell knows.

NeverSawMantle

While we’re at it, how does this 58 Mantle look? It doesn’t look perfect enough to be trimmed, but if it is, I’d rather know now and submit refund request.

1959

Mantle does not looked trimmed. Edges too imperfect. Send it in.

1951WheatiesPremium

@NeverSawMantle said:
While we’re at it, how does this 58 Mantle look? It doesn’t look perfect enough to be trimmed, but if it is, I’d rather know now and submit refund request.

My kind of card!

Looks good to me and easily covers what you owe for the advice. 😉

Good luck

handyman

Mantle looks good Payton I do not like top right corner, odd wear(or was more worn then cut) is a big give away. And bottom shoots down. Payton is really cut up