Counterfeit 1911-D $5 Gold
DelawareDoons
Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
I scooped this off eBay, was listed as just an 1911 with crappy pics. Got it in hand and pretty quickly ruled it out as counterfeit, the obverse die actually matches a known counterfeit in the Fivaz book. The D mintmark is too blobby and is too high as well.
Just a fun little coin I wanted to show... I didn't realize my camera was slightly off alignment until after it was on its way back to the seller. 
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
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Comments
A link to the book if you're interested in classic US gold;
https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-Detection-Official-Whitman-Guidebook/dp/0794820077
I can highly recommend it!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Here's a genuine if anyone enjoys comparing.
On a side note: I've always been curious how the designer didn't catch heat for his initials so prominently displayed on the obverse, unlike VDB on the 1909 Lincoln cent.
peacockcoins
Not a terrible fake.
Jbknifeandcoin.com
IG: jb_rarities
Is it made of real gold?
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
What other kind of gold is there? /s
peacockcoins
I’ll re-word it. Does it have the correct metal composition as a genuine piece?
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
There is fools gold.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Well made counterfeits usually contain the proper gold weight and fineness because counterfeiters know that their product will be checked for weight and fineness. They were content to make their profit on the numismatic premium of these coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Based on this comment it would seem their hope is to cash in on the numismatic value of the particular coin which would be significant for a legit 1911-D in AU or MS condition.
That begs the question of how was it listed. DelawareDoons, can you fill us in on how it was listed?
It is made of real gold as far as I could tell. Sounded like gold, weighed right, specs checked out.
As I mentioned in my original post, it was listed as a 1911, not a 1911-D, for $905 with crap pics, hence why I bought it.
The seller said he got it from somebody at a flea market, which I don't see any reason to not believe given it was in an older 2x2... however, this guy hasn't refunded me yet and he's had it in hand since last Thursday so I'll be escalating to eBay today. The seller hasn't relisted it, at least...
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Also I do have to agree. This could easily fool somebody who hasn't done their homework.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
There are a lot of these fake $5 Indians out there... And I also recommend the book 'Counterfeit Detection' linked above. Excellent reference. Cheers, RickO
That's because Barber didn't have it in for Bela.
Pete
What diagnostics make you think it is like the one in the Fivaz book? I am not seeing any.
That OP's coin looks real to me. What specifically makes it look like a counterfeit? The D mintmark was punched in by hand so it's location will vary somewhat and is frequently filled in.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I bought a bunch of raw Indian half & quarter eagles on eBay around 20 years ago. I took them to Long Beach and a dealer immediately recognized one of the quarter eagles as counterfeit, albeit 22k. It’s in the SDB and I keep thinking about getting a bezel to turn it into a pendant. I think I paid around $150 for it, so my cost is pretty close to melt
I know $2 1/2 Indians pretty darn well, and can spot most fakes, but I am not as experienced with the $5 Indians. But I too think it looks pretty good. Of course, seeing it in hand might make a difference.
Many counterfeit gold coins wind up being used in jewelry. At least if the owner polishes it, there's no real harm done.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That's how I look at it. I mean, it's GOLD, and it looks cool. I suppose I could send it to SGS and it would come back as MS71 or something
One of the other coins I got was a 1909 half eagle. I paid around $170 for it and it came back from PCGS as MS63. So I can't complain...
Was there a grade assigned to it?
Not referencing the D would be a major red flag given the difference in the price. An AU P is $900 while an AU D is $3,000. It gets worse in the MS grades. An MS-62 P is $1,000 while a D is $18,000.
Has all three characteristics of the 1911 obverse die in the book, but that mark in between the stars is particularly damning. Open and shut.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
You wouldn't believe some of the crap I've bought off eBay. Let's just say I shoot first, ask questions later, and get paid.
Some people are dumb as rocks.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Crap, I was looking at the 09-D in the Fivaz book. Agree, open and shut based on the 1911 pictures.
Challenge for me is to ID fakes not in the book. I have a hard time telling the difference between depressions that indicate "fake" vs hits from bagmarks that are not fake.
The big things I've found are to look in the neck for tooling marks and around the eagles legs. Also random die gouges around the peripheral of the coin, as well as proper rim/edge/reeding formation. Repeaters are always tough to spot unless you just have in and out knowledge of the counterfeits in the series.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Crappy pictures are always concerning to me... I just stay away completely. That's a good fake but you nailed it for sure with the depression by the stars. I love that book! Good luck, eBay should help make you whole on this one.
Mark