John Jay Pittman and his extraordinary coins!

Zoins

Two good threads on John Jay Pittman on CoinWeek:

https://coinweek.com/us-coins/a-big-move-for-a-small-coin-the-legend-of-john-jay-pittmans-statue-of-liberty-bidding-strategy/

https://coinweek.com/recent-articles-video/searching-for-a-sleeper-collecting-classic-us-coins/

Perhaps no numismatist was better at identifying sleepers than the late John Jay Pittman (1913-1996). His daughter Polly told me her father used to stay up until two or three in the morning studying auction catalogs and other numismatic reference works. As a result, the story goes, over his lifetime Pittman invested no more than $100,000 in his collection, which sold for over $30 million after his death!

Pittman was a shrewd negotiator, but more importantly, a shrewd researcher. While the benefit of time greatly helped enhance the value of his collection, he made many carefully thought-out purchases of sleepers. A few well-known examples that sold in 1997 during the first installment of the sale of his collection include his purchase at the 1948 ANA convention in Boston of a 1792 Half Disme for $100 that realized $308,000; his 1956 purchase of a Proof 1854 Type 2 Gold Dollar, one of four known, for $525 that realized $176,000; and his purchase of one of two known Proof 1833 $5 Half Eagles for $635 from the 1954 King Farouk sale in Egypt, which realized $467,500. He purchased the 1854 Proof Gold Dollar at the Central States Numismatic Society Convention auction in Indianapolis where, when the lot came up for sale, he walked to the front of the room, faced the crowd, held his arm high in the air to bid, and stared down anyone who dared to bid against him until he won the coin. After that move, he earned the nickname “The Statue of Liberty.”

1841 Seated Liberty No Motto Dollar Proof - PCGS PR64 CAC - Pittman Specimen
PCGS Population: 1/0
PCGS Price Guide: $165,000
Certs: PCGS-21982341, CAC-L-21982341

TurtleCat

The era he collected also helped.

RichieURich

Eric P. Newman did real well too.

CaptainBlunt

John Jay Ford Jr. Ford’s heirs

GoBust

I would think Eric Newman was the most successful financially after he got almost exclusive access to the Col. Green coins. He never needed to compete at auction. He assembled his collection earlier and sold it much later. And of course sold tons of coins he didn't keep for his set.

Zoins

Newman's collection was sold in 11 sales totaling over $76 million. And yes, he held for a very long time.

ColonelJessup

@Zoins said:
Newman's collection was sold in 11 sales totaling over $76 million. And yes, he held for a very long time.

One of the benefits to living until 106, bless 'im

Zoins

@ColonelJessup said:

@Zoins said:
Newman's collection was sold in 11 sales totaling over $76 million. And yes, he held for a very long time.

One of the benefits to living until 106, bless 'im

Definitely. We should all be so lucky! It's amazing when coins are out of the collecting public for multiple generations, even more so when they are held by one person!

tcollects

I heard that guy say unnecessarily mean things to low wage staff

that's how I remember him

tradedollarnut

Eliasberg turned $400k into $44M

tradedollarnut

The Garrett sales grossed $25M. I don’t know how much he spent but based upon the era he was collecting, I suspect way less than $100k

Zoins

@tcollects said:
I heard that guy say unnecessarily mean things to low wage staff

that's how I remember him

Which one?

Coinosaurus

The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

CaptHenway

@CaptainBlunt said:
John Jay Ford Jr. Ford’s heirs

Definitely a contender.

jmlanzaf

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

Pittman actually helped the Rochester coin club by completing their clad proof sets. That was not a good investment.

291fifth

@TurtleCat said:
The era he collected also helped.

This was the real key to his success. He collected in an era of tremendous growth in the hobby and rode the wave to the top because of his careful, research based approach.

Zoins

@291fifth said:

@TurtleCat said:
The era he collected also helped.

This was the real key to his success. He collected in an era of tremendous growth in the hobby and rode the wave to the top because of his careful, research based approach.

It seemed that he also did a lot of studying to find rare pieces. Did other collectors of the time do the same?

291fifth

@Zoins said:

@291fifth said:

@TurtleCat said:
The era he collected also helped.

This was the real key to his success. He collected in an era of tremendous growth in the hobby and rode the wave to the top because of his careful, research based approach.

It seemed that he also did a lot of studying to find rare pieces. Did other collectors of the time do the same?

I'm sure some did but many just let their dealer contacts do the work for them. He operated in the upper end of the coin market where the money was. While he was not super wealthy he did have a very high paying position by the standards of his time. I recall seeing him at shows toward the end of his collecting days and even talked with him at one time. The discussion was actually on displaying paper money and the effect of things like protective holders on the appearance of the paper money. Each layer of plastic would lessen the brilliance of the paper by about 10% is what I recall him saying.

ColonelJessup

@Zoins said:

@tcollects said:
I heard that guy say unnecessarily mean things to low wage staff

that's how I remember him

Which one?

That sounds like John J. Fraud.

ianrussell

I don't think any of the answers above are close to the #1 return in numismatics (percentage-wise or total dollars). We're writing about this currently (coincidentally).

• Ian

johnny9434

@tcollects said:
I heard that guy say unnecessarily mean things to low wage staff

that's how I remember him

sounds like leona helmsly to me,just saying

jesbroken

Just think of what value $100k had pre 1950 and just look at the coin prices of those eras and see what at roughly $1,110,000 today would buy. Era was definitely a defining factor, then add the fact these guys were at the top of their game. Couldn't ask for better odds of success.
Jim

Gazes

@ianrussell said:
I don't think any of the answers above are close to the #1 return in numismatics (percentage-wise or total dollars). We're writing about this currently (coincidentally).

• Ian

Where will your article be to read ?

ianrussell

@Gazes said:

@ianrussell said:
I don't think any of the answers above are close to the #1 return in numismatics (percentage-wise or total dollars). We're writing about this currently (coincidentally).

• Ian

Where will your article be to read ?

I'm going to post it on here and on our website. We're going to publish in about a week or 10 days.

• Ian

cladking

@jmlanzaf said:

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

Pittman actually helped the Rochester coin club by completing their clad proof sets. That was not a good investment.

I think it's interesting that Pittman's clad coin collection has never been sold.

Of course, maybe the family was just advised to haul it to the bank.

jmlanzaf

@cladking said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

Pittman actually helped the Rochester coin club by completing their clad proof sets. That was not a good investment.

I think it's interesting that Pittman's clad coin collection has never been sold.

Of course, maybe the family was just advised to haul it to the bank.

The family has sold material directly to dealers. Just because it didn't hit an auction doesn't mean it wasn't sold.

Zoins

@cladking said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

Pittman actually helped the Rochester coin club by completing their clad proof sets. That was not a good investment.

I think it's interesting that Pittman's clad coin collection has never been sold.

Of course, maybe the family was just advised to haul it to the bank.

I thought you meant SDB at first to wait for appreciation, and then I as like "oh...."

cladking

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

@jmlanzaf said:

@cladking said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

Pittman actually helped the Rochester coin club by completing their clad proof sets. That was not a good investment.

I think it's interesting that Pittman's clad coin collection has never been sold.

Of course, maybe the family was just advised to haul it to the bank.

The family has sold material directly to dealers. Just because it didn't hit an auction doesn't mean it wasn't sold.

Do you know this for a fact?

I researched this back in '96 and found no evidence it was dispersed at all. There's little doubt that there were all manner of odds and ends accumulated over a lifetime that would have been sold to dealers.

Back in those days a lot of dealers would have hauled clad to the bank after checking the CDN for BU rolls.

jmlanzaf

@cladking said:

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

@jmlanzaf said:

@cladking said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Coinosaurus said:
The stock market at 10% annual return has outperformed most coin collectors. For every Newman and Pittman there's thousands of casual collectors who invested in losers like 1971 proof sets.

Pittman actually helped the Rochester coin club by completing their clad proof sets. That was not a good investment.

I think it's interesting that Pittman's clad coin collection has never been sold.

Of course, maybe the family was just advised to haul it to the bank.

The family has sold material directly to dealers. Just because it didn't hit an auction doesn't mean it wasn't sold.

Do you know this for a fact?

I researched this back in '96 and found no evidence it was dispersed at all. There's little doubt that there were all manner of odds and ends accumulated over a lifetime that would have been sold to dealers.

Back in those days a lot of dealers would have hauled clad to the bank after checking the CDN for BU rolls.

I know that the family has sold material. I know who bought some of it. I don't know specifically about the clad coinage.

Zoins

1852 Dime PCGS PR65 - Pittman-Hansen Specimen
Mintage: 8
PCGS Population: 2/1
PCGS Price Guide: $40,000
PCGS Cert: 32463768

Great coin @DLHansen!

Zoins

@291fifth said:

@Zoins said:

@291fifth said:

@TurtleCat said:
The era he collected also helped.

This was the real key to his success. He collected in an era of tremendous growth in the hobby and rode the wave to the top because of his careful, research based approach.

It seemed that he also did a lot of studying to find rare pieces. Did other collectors of the time do the same?

I'm sure some did but many just let their dealer contacts do the work for them. He operated in the upper end of the coin market where the money was. While he was not super wealthy he did have a very high paying position by the standards of his time. I recall seeing him at shows toward the end of his collecting days and even talked with him at one time.

Great experience! I get it was great to speak with him!

Is there a Pittman of our times? Someone who does well but isn't super wealthy?

Zoins

1868 3 Dollar in Aluminum - Judd-655 - PCGS PR64 CAC - Kosoff-Pittman Specimen
PCGS Population: 5/0
PCGS Price Guide: $20,000
Certs: PCGS-39841104, CAC-L-39841104

Another amazing Pittman coin:

• USPatterns: https://uspatterns.store.turbify.net/j655p728.html
• Sale: https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1868-3-three-dollar-judd-655-pollock-728-low-r7-pr64-pcgs-cac-pcgs-60873-/a/1299-4098.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

The HA photos provide an alternate flashy look.

golden

I set up my first bourse table at the 1973 BRNA show in Birmingham, Alabama. John Jay Pittman stopped by my table and looked at my coins with his large magnifying glass. He did not buy anything, but I was impressed.
Also, at that show I was ready to pack up and head home on the last day of the show when the dealer next to me said that David Hall was on the floor. I did not know who in the heck David Hall was. The dealer was very excited, so I decided to wait until David Hall came around to my table. He bought several coins from me including my highest priced coin. Those were the days.

Zoins

@golden said:
I set up my first bourse table at the 1973 BRNA show in Birmingham, Alabama. John Jay Pittman stopped by my table and looked at my coins with his large magnifying glass. He did not buy anything, but I was impressed.

Also, at that show I was ready to pack up and head home on the last day of the show when the dealer next to me said that David Hall was on the floor. I did not know who in the heck David Hall was. The dealer was very excited, so I decided to wait until David Hall came around to my table. He bought several coins from me including my highest priced coin. Those were the days.

Awesome stories @golden! It's great to be able to meet and remember collectors and dealers like that!

Do you remember what coin David purchased? Hopefully @homerunhall will chime in as well!

edwardjulio

Ex: Pittman, January 2007
CAC POP 1/1
Images by FlyingAl

golden

David Hall bought my 1800 AMERICAI variety Bust Dollar Bolender 19 in AU- 50 for $995! Dang, I wish that I had that one back.

Zoins

@edwardjulio said:
Ex: Pittman, January 2007
CAC POP 1/1
Images by FlyingAl

1877 $2.5 Quarter Eagle - PCGS PR66DCAM CAC
Mintage: 20
PCGS Population: 2/0
Certs: PCGS-37523371, CAC-37523371

Wow! Gorgeous coin @edwardjulio! Congrats!

Is any info known on the Mountain Home pedigree?

Here's your TrueView!

edwardjulio

@Zoins - Mountain Home is mine.

Zoins

@edwardjulio said:
@Zoins - Mountain Home is mine.

Ah! Very cool! Great name

Zoins

1843 $10 Gold Eagle Proof - PCGS PR64DCAM CAC - Boyd-Pittman Specimen
PCGS Population: 1/1
PCGS Price Guide: $700,000
Certs: PCGS-37286327, CAC-L-37286327

• Sale: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-eagles/eagles/1843-10-pr64-deep-cameo-pcgs-cac-jd-1-r7/a/1298-3904.s

Zoins

1877 $50 Half Union Pattern - J-1547 - PCGS PR68RB - Farouk-Pittman-Simpson Specimen
Mintage: 10 known
PCGS Population: 1/0
Certs: PCGS-31672640

Wow! Amazing top pop coin!

Zoins

@TurtleCat said:
The era he collected also helped.

Collecting for a long time probably also helped. Do we know what age he started collecting serious coins?

1993 ANA Anniversary Medal - PCGS MS65 - Pittman-KBK Hong Specimen
Certs: PCGS-81762530

JBN

A Pittman piece.

CaptHenway

@Zoins said:
1877 $50 Half Union Pattern - J-1547 - PCGS PR68RB - Farouk-Pittman-Simpson Specimen
Mintage: 10 known
PCGS Population: 1/0
Certs: PCGS-31672640

I remember seeing this at some ANA in one of Pittman's non-competetive Exhibits, along with his OTHER Half Union pattern in Bronze. He wanted to exhibit Obverse and Reverse, you know!

Zoins

@JBN said:
A Pittman piece.

Great piece! Congrats!

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:

@Zoins said:
1877 $50 Half Union Pattern - J-1547 - PCGS PR68RB - Farouk-Pittman-Simpson Specimen
Mintage: 10 known
PCGS Population: 1/0
Certs: PCGS-31672640

I remember seeing this at some ANA in one of Pittman's non-competetive Exhibits, along with his OTHER Half Union pattern in Bronze. He wanted to exhibit Obverse and Reverse, you know!

It's really great to hear these stories. Have to find that coin!

It's realy nice to see some of these Farouk coins that he traveled to Egypt for!

Zoins

Here's a great article on JJP from Ron @BestGerman . It does indicate that he was eventually priced out of the US market and moved on the world coins, like some other collectors:

@BestGerman said:
John Jay Pittman (or “JJP” as he was known by family and friends), loved coins that were both rare and of high quality, especially early Proof coins from the 1800s. JJP began collecting coins in 1943 and he purchased coins in the subsequent three decades from virtually all of the big-name dealers and from most of the major numismatic auction houses. JJP has been described as a man of limited financial means (in fact, he took out a second mortgage on his house to make purchases at the sale of King Farouk’s coins in Egypt in 1954), but considering that his collection brought over $30 million USD at auction, it seems hard to empathize with that image of him. Rather, JJP was a very astute buyer who focused on early American Proof coins when they were much undervalued and underappreciated. In later years, when U.S. coins exceeded his budget, he began to focus on world coins, where he built an equally impressive collection.

Some more in the article from Dave Akers:

Dave Akers said:
As the lot was called, [JJP] walked to the front of the Florentine Room in the Claypool Hotel where the sale was taking place, turned and faced the crowd, his back to the auctioneer, and held up his arm to bid until the gavel was struck awarding him the lot at $525. During the bidding process, he intently stared at anyone who ‘dared’ to bid against him. He stayed by the podium and repeated the procedure for the next lot … and several subsequent lots … He never wavered and never dropped his arm until he was recognized as the winning bidder in each instance. His actions earned him the nickname ‘The Statue of Liberty’.

[H]e told me he acted as he did because he recognized the importance and rarity of the 1854 and 1855 Proofs especially, and felt he might never again have the opportunity to acquire them. As a result, he was ready to buy them at almost any price. However, since he was always on a restricted budget, he didn’t want the prices to get out of hand, and so he felt he would have the best chance to be successful if he were able to convince other prospective bidders to drop out of the bidding early, once they had observed his resolve.

https://coinweek.com/a-big-move-for-a-small-coin-the-legend-of-john-jay-pittmans-statue-of-liberty-bidding-strategy/

Zoins

@golden said:
David Hall bought my 1800 AMERICAI variety Bust Dollar Bolender 19 in AU- 50 for $995! Dang, I wish that I had that one back.

Great memory!

Do you recognize it on CoinFacts?

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1800-1-americai/images/6892

golden

@Zoins said:

@golden said:
David Hall bought my 1800 AMERICAI variety Bust Dollar Bolender 19 in AU- 50 for $995! Dang, I wish that I had that one back.

Great memory!

Do you recognize it on CoinFacts?

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1800-1-americai/images/6892

I do not think any of those on CoinFacts are the coin.

Zoins

"1884" 1834 Toronto Semi-Centennial - Lady Liberty Mule - PCGS SP67 - John Jay Pittman Specimen
PCGS Population: 1/0

One of my pieces from Pittman's collection.