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Is it possible to reassemble the Sultan of Muscat Set?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 15, 2021 7:41AM in U.S. Coin Forum

Here's the King of Siam set in its original holder. Given that these coins are now in individual slabs, the holder doesn't matter as much any more for presentation.

Some questions:

  1. When was the Sultan of Muscat set broken up?
  2. How many of the Sultan of Muscat coins are known?
  3. Is it possible to reassemble the set?

The Eagle

The Dollar

The Quarter

This coin is speculated to be the quarter:

The provenance goes back to Colonel Green:

Stack's Bowers wrote:
Provenance: Col. E.H.R. Green Collection; partnership of Eric P. Newman and Burdette G. Johnson; Eric P. Newman, by trade; Washington University of St. Louis, by gift, ca. 1952-54; Mrs. Emery May Norweb Collection, via New Netherlands Coin Company, by sale, November 5, 1954; Bowers and Merena’s sale of the Norweb Collection, Part II, March 1988, lot 1554; Heritage’s sale of the Andre Dawson Collection, September 1998, lot 6650; Bowers and Merena’s Rarities Sale of August 1999, lot 134; Superior Galleries’ sale of February 2001, lot 5430; Heritage’s sale of November 2002, lot 11487.

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Comments

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 7:33AM

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @Zoins said:
    Here's the King of Siam set in its original holder. Given that these coins are now in individual slabs, the holder doesn't matter as much any more for presentation.

    Have you become so incognizant of history that you think the long-famous "yellow morocco presentation case" is the equivalent of a TPG holder?

    Wake up and change this load-of-crap characterization before more people are mislead by your statement. >:)

    Please re-read what I wrote:

    the holder doesn't matter as much any more for presentation.

    I didn't say they are equivalent, but the fact is that the coins are no longer in the original holder and cannot be viewed that way. Do you disagree?

    Of course, it's nice to have the old holder image with the coins in them, but that's an image from the past. The holder is also nice on it's own, empty of course.

    @messydesk posted some photos of the King of Siam set from ANA. This is what the dollar looks like today. Note that it's not in the original holder ;)

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1061899/the-expensive-exhibits-of-the-ana-show#latest

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 7:36AM

    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 7:35AM

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad.
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    Thank you for your contribution :)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 8:49AM

    @MFeld said:
    “Is it possible to reassemble the Sultan of Muscat Set?”

    No, it’s not.

    I got goosebumps, reading the last paragraph.
    [...]
    “What Watters had acquired, probably in London about 1867, was the remains of a set of United States coins distributed in 1834 by the United States Department of State. Watters had purchased what was left of the set given to the Sultan of Muscat on October 1, 1835...”

    Wow! Great find @MFeld!

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @MFeld said:
    “Is it possible to reassemble the Sultan of Muscat Set?”

    No, it’s not.

    I got goosebumps, reading the last paragraph.
    [...]
    “What Watters had acquired, probably in London about 1867, was the remains of a set of United States coins distributed in 1834 by the United States Department of State. Watters had purchased what was left of the set given to the Sultan of Muscat on October 1, 1835...”

    Wow! Great find @MFeld!

    What happened with the Sultan of Muscat set and the two coins from the King of Siam set are very sad and glaring reminders of the sometimes fragile and fleeting nature of coin provenances.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 7:59AM

    @MFeld said:

    @Zoins said:

    @MFeld said:
    “Is it possible to reassemble the Sultan of Muscat Set?”

    No, it’s not.

    I got goosebumps, reading the last paragraph.
    [...]
    “What Watters had acquired, probably in London about 1867, was the remains of a set of United States coins distributed in 1834 by the United States Department of State. Watters had purchased what was left of the set given to the Sultan of Muscat on October 1, 1835...”

    Wow! Great find @MFeld!

    What happened with the Sultan of Muscat set and the two coins from the King of Siam set are very sad and glaring reminders of the sometimes fragile and fleeting nature of coin provenances.

    Agreed. Hopefully, good photo records and online auction records can assist these days.

    At the same time, I note that a lot of provenance seems to be lost even today. In reviewing the Parkoff sale, I noted that Parkoff had a lot of provenance in his notes that did not get transferred to the auction lot descriptions this year.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    The King of Siam Proof set has always been a dream for me. The closest I might have come was when it was selling for about $1 million. It was still raw then. If I had bought it, I would have had a custom Capital Plastic holder made for it for safer storage.

    If I had had the opportunity to exhibit the set, it would have been displayed like this.

    It's a nice way to enjoy the set. It would have been amazing if you picked up the set at the time! Did you consider it at the time?

    So far as the Sultan's set, I imagine that the lesser coins in Proof would be the hard part. How would you know which exact pieces were in the set? Yes, they are rare and there are not that many 1834 Proof coins coins around, but was there ever a photo of the set when it was intact? I doubt it.

    Agreed. I wonder if any other coins are associated with the set, even speculatively like the quarter.

    I made up this virtual set at one time. Unfortunately cracking these coins out to display them and then having them certified again gets to be very expensive.

    The image looks really nice. Slabs are a fact of modern collecting. I've purchased multi coin holders like Capital Plastics for some of my coins, knowing I won't crack them out to populate the holder. It may be silly to want the holder in that event, but it's nice to think about doing it.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 8:19AM

    @Zoins -
    Probably 99+% of all knowledgeable coin people would think your perspective has been warped by the TPG nomenclature. You could have corrected this at any time. Your insistence is, perhaps, based on your need to be right. When the initial premise in your opening paragraph is dead wrong, one tends to devalue the rest of the post.

    And your point was completely irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic. Gratuitous misinformation about relevance and nomenclature.

    Holder? 40+ years in the business and I've never, in all that that time, heard of the presentation case referred to as a holder. Your perspective is very unusual; one might say unique. Or solipsistic.

    "Man who farts in church sits in his own poo".

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 8:04AM

    @ColonelJessup said:
    @Zoins - you have now proved you are an intractable ignoramus.
    Probably 99+% of all knowledgeable coin people would think your perspective has been warped by the TPG nomenclature. You could have corrected this at any time. Your insistence is, perhaps, based on your need to be right. When the initial premise in your opening paragraph is dead wrong, one tends to devalue the rest of the post.

    And your point was completely irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic. Gratuitous _mis_information.

    "Man who farts in church sits in his own poo".

    Very nice @ColonelJessup .

    Glad you're enjoying the thread.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a nice way to enjoy the set. It would have been amazing if you picked up the set at the time! Did you consider it at the time?

    If I had sold my entire collection and mortgaged my underwear, I might have come close, but it was nothing but a dream. I doubt that the auction houses would have raised my bidding limit to that level.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    It's a nice way to enjoy the set. It would have been amazing if you picked up the set at the time! Did you consider it at the time?

    If I had sold my entire collection and mortgaged my underwear, I might have come close, but it was nothing but a dream. I doubt that the auction houses would have raised my bidding limit to that level.

    Thanks and understood. Probably not prudent but still fun to think about.

  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    imagine holding that set in your hands. wow. beautiful coins.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    @Zoins - you have now proved you are an intractable ignoramus.
    Probably 99+% of all knowledgeable coin people would think your perspective has been warped by the TPG nomenclature. You could have corrected this at any time. Your insistence is, perhaps, based on your need to be right. When the initial premise in your opening paragraph is dead wrong, one tends to devalue the rest of the post.

    And your point was completely irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic. Gratuitous _mis_information.

    "Man who farts in church sits in his own poo".

    Very nice @ColonelJessup .

    Glad you're enjoying the thread.

    Impressed with your humility.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @steveben said:
    imagine holding that set in your hands. wow. beautiful coins.

    Agreed. Both sets pictured are amazing, the King of Siam set and BIll's Pan Pac set!

  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    since we are dreaming, if i owned the set, i would definitely take them out and have them encapsulated. i like bill's idea of a capital plastics holder, but personally, i would choose a tpg. i would keep the original presentation tray, of course.

    because the original presentation requires one to use the pull tabs to remove a coin to examine it's reverse, in my mind, that is too risky. you want to be able to flip the presentation upside down to view the reverse without touching the coins...and the original presentation doesn't allow for this, based on the photo i am seeing here. i am not versed with this collection.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 8:42AM

    @steveben said:
    since we are dreaming, if i owned the set, i would definitely take them out and have them encapsulated. i like bill's idea of a capital plastics holder, but personally, i would choose a tpg. i would keep the original presentation tray, of course.

    because the original presentation requires one to use the pull tabs to remove a coin to examine it's reverse, in my mind, that is too risky. you want to be able to flip the presentation upside down to view the reverse without touching the coins...and the original presentation doesn't allow for this, based on the photo i am seeing here. i am not versed with this collection.

    It's certainly very important to be careful with valuable coins when they are raw. Just viewing these raw items at these prices can be an event. Imagine a jeweler examining diamonds or something similar.

    The nice thing about TPG slabs is that they are very secure and protective of the coins. You can handle a multi million dollar coin as you would a $50 coin.

    By the way, for handling raw coins, check out this thread by @cardinal !

    Specimen 1794 Dollar cracked out at the ANA!

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 9:09AM

    @Zoins said:

    @BillJones said:

    It's a nice way to enjoy the set. It would have been amazing if you picked up the set at the time! Did you consider it at the time?

    If I had sold my entire collection and mortgaged my underwear, I might have come close, but it was nothing but a dream. I doubt that the auction houses would have raised my bidding limit to that level.

    Thanks and understood. Probably not prudent but still fun to think about.

    I had a similar thought soon after I graduated from MBA school and had started a new job. One of the best 1792 half dismes came for auction. I thought it would sell for $100,000. I thought, “Now if I sold my whole collection…”

    I was right about the $100,000, but there was a catch. I later learned that the coin was “bought in” so if I had sold my collection, I would been left with money and no collection. :/

    In those days the auction houses were a lot loss open about bids that didn’t make the reserve.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 10:25AM

    Tip toeing around ColonelJessup? >:):#

    @steveben said:
    since we are dreaming, if i owned the set, i would definitely take them out and have them encapsulated. i like bill's idea of a capital plastics holder, but personally, i would choose a tpg. i would keep the original presentation tray, of course.

    because the original presentation requires one to use the pull tabs to remove a coin to examine it's reverse, in my mind, that is too risky. you want to be able to flip the presentation upside down to view the reverse without touching the coins...and the original presentation doesn't allow for this, based on the photo i am seeing here. i am not versed with this collection.

  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By the way, for handling raw coins, check out this thread by @cardinal !

    Specimen 1794 Dollar cracked out at the ANA!

    Hmmm, I did that also……neat memory.

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Tip toeing around ColonelJessup? >:):#

    i can't handle the truth

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 12:02PM

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 2:05PM

    Actually, the box is a lot more important than say... the un-original half-dime and Jackson medalet. It has, from its discovery, been an integral part of the collectable.

    Why take my word? Stay clueless.

    Dave Bowers personally handed me that open presentation case with the raw coins in it. The coins were NOT in flips. The grades were not promoted. It was the Set in its original case. QDB could not think of a more appropriate presentation; just as it would have appeared to the King when first presented.

    @pmh1nic said:

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    MY answer? Take it up with QDB

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 2:15PM

    Dave Bowers personally handed me that open presentation case with the raw coins in it. The coins were NOT in flips. The grades were not promoted. It was the Set in its original case. QDB could not think of a more appropriate presentation; just as it would have appeared to the King when first presented.

    If you look at the ownership history of this set, the grades assigned are really secondary. It's the history of the set, which includes Anna Leonowens, made famous by the play "Anna and the King of Siam" and more famous by the Rogers and Hammerstein musical, "The King and I."

    I recall one point where each of the coins had the graded increased by one point when the set was crossed to another grading service.

    Frankly, the first paragraph means more to me than the second.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    I don’t see how the coins being out of the presentation case tells anyone how much
    value numismatic history has assigned to it. In fact, I don’t think the former has anything, whatsoever, to do with the latter.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:
    Actually, the box is a lot more important than say... the un-original half-dime and Jackson medalet. It has, from its discovery, been an integral part of the collectable.

    Why take my word? Stay clueless.

    Dave Bowers personally handed me that open presentation case with the raw coins in it. The coins were NOT in flips. The grades were not promoted. It was the Set in its original case. QDB could not think of a more appropriate presentation; just as it would have appeared to the King when first presented.

    @pmh1nic said:

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    MY answer? Take it up with QDB

    Typical defection. QDB is not on the forum ranting about a box. I asked a simple question and rather than answer the question, knowing the answer renders your protest nothing more than a meaningless rant, you twist in the wind with "take it up with QDB". No one said the "box" had no value and yet you put on a dog and pony show because the OP dared to say "the holder doesn't matter as much any more for presentation". Well guess what, the numismatic community seems to have agreed with that sentiment.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    I don’t see how the coins being out of the presentation case tells anyone how much
    value numismatic history has assigned to it. In fact, I don’t think the former has anything, whatsoever, to do with the latter.

    Mark, are the coins in the "box"? Value and importance can be determined by the actions taken. It was considered much more important to protect the coins versus trying to preserve them in the "box". Again, no one said the "box" had no value. The statement made by the OP was the holder doesn't matter "as much" since the coins are now preserved in slabs. It's a contrast between preserving the coins in the slabs versus having them remain in the "box".

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pmh1nic said:

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    I don’t see how the coins being out of the presentation case tells anyone how much
    value numismatic history has assigned to it. In fact, I don’t think the former has anything, whatsoever, to do with the latter.

    Mark, are the coins in the "box"? Value and importance can be determined by the actions taken. It was considered much more important to protect the coins versus trying to preserve them in the "box". Again, no one said the "box" had no value. The statement made by the OP was the holder doesn't matter "as much" since the coins are now preserved in slabs. It's a contrast between preserving the coins in the slabs versus having them remain in the "box".

    I think you’re doing fine, other than your quote below.

    “As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    I don’t see how the coins being out of the presentation case tells anyone how much
    value numismatic history has assigned to it. In fact, I don’t think the former has anything, whatsoever, to do with the latter.

    Mark, are the coins in the "box"? Value and importance can be determined by the actions taken. It was considered much more important to protect the coins versus trying to preserve them in the "box". Again, no one said the "box" had no value. The statement made by the OP was the holder doesn't matter "as much" since the coins are now preserved in slabs. It's a contrast between preserving the coins in the slabs versus having them remain in the "box".

    I think you’re doing fine, other than your quote below.

    “As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    O.k., so maybe I was a little over the top to make a point. On the flipside the rant by the Colonel was over the top and then some. The point is relative to the coins the "box" is of little value. When the coins were presented to the King I doubt he did a five minute rant on how exquisite the "box" was. I watched a video on this collection where the "box" was slowly open to reveal that it was an empty "box". Very unimpressive.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pmh1nic said:

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    I don’t see how the coins being out of the presentation case tells anyone how much
    value numismatic history has assigned to it. In fact, I don’t think the former has anything, whatsoever, to do with the latter.

    Mark, are the coins in the "box"? Value and importance can be determined by the actions taken. It was considered much more important to protect the coins versus trying to preserve them in the "box". Again, no one said the "box" had no value. The statement made by the OP was the holder doesn't matter "as much" since the coins are now preserved in slabs. It's a contrast between preserving the coins in the slabs versus having them remain in the "box".

    I think you’re doing fine, other than your quote below.

    “As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    O.k., so maybe I was a little over the top to make a point. On the flipside the rant by the Colonel was over the top and then some. The point is relative to the coins the "box" is of little value. When the coins were presented to the King I doubt he did a five minute rant on how exquisite the "box" was. I watched a video on this collection where the "box" was slowly open to reveal that it was an empty "box". Very unimpressive.

    Would you agree to an edit from “a little over the top” to “through the roof”? 😉

    Regardless, I believe that the presentation case’s historical value has long been permanently cemented. And that it has virtually nothing to do with whether the coins are in the case or in a grading company’s holders. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the coins could somehow be as well preserved in the presentation case as they can in their present holders?!!

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:
    It's NOT a holder. It's never been a holder. Your inability to make that discrimination is sad. It will always be an integral part of the set. The slabs are at best semi-relevant; good for storage
    What you wrote was foolishness.
    Your insistence on rejecting this correction is one of the reasons I care less and less about participating here.

    The gentleman protest to much.

    Holder: a device or implement for holding something

    The King of Siam set is also accompanied by the original, custom-made yellow leather and blue velvet case that housed the coins when Edmund Roberts, a presidential envoy from the U.S. State Department, presented it during an overseas trade mission on behalf of President Jackson to King Ph’ra Nang Klao (Rama III) of Siam in April 1836. The coins in the set were housed in a custom-made plush purple velvet lined Moroccan leather, wood box.

    The presentation case, box or holder was used to hold/house the coins. It was always a "holder".

    It's always a pleasure to observe those who insist on the least amount of intellectual rigor to make a point. Helps with my chimp count :#

    There's simplicity of language and then there's the simplistic obfuscation of the numismatic history of the phrase "presentation case" that has always been used in numismatic literature.

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    And then there is the person that can't see the forest for the trees. Relative to the coins themselves the box, housing, holder is of little importance. As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    I don’t see how the coins being out of the presentation case tells anyone how much
    value numismatic history has assigned to it. In fact, I don’t think the former has anything, whatsoever, to do with the latter.

    Mark, are the coins in the "box"? Value and importance can be determined by the actions taken. It was considered much more important to protect the coins versus trying to preserve them in the "box". Again, no one said the "box" had no value. The statement made by the OP was the holder doesn't matter "as much" since the coins are now preserved in slabs. It's a contrast between preserving the coins in the slabs versus having them remain in the "box".

    I think you’re doing fine, other than your quote below.

    “As far as "numismatic history" is concerned, how many of those coins are still in the original box? Your answer to that question will tell you how much value numismatic history assigned to the "box"

    O.k., so maybe I was a little over the top to make a point. On the flipside the rant by the Colonel was over the top and then some. The point is relative to the coins the "box" is of little value. When the coins were presented to the King I doubt he did a five minute rant on how exquisite the "box" was. I watched a video on this collection where the "box" was slowly open to reveal that it was an empty "box". Very unimpressive.

    Would you agree to an edit from “a little over the top” to “through the roof”? 😉

    Regardless, I believe that the presentation case’s historical value has long been permanently cemented. And that it has virtually nothing to do with whether the coins are in the case or in a grading company’s holders. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the coins could somehow be as well preserved in the presentation case as they can in their present holders?!!

    Only if you'd assign "to infinity and beyond" to the Colonel's rant :smiley:

    If it was possible to separate the "box" from the coins how much do you think the empty "box" would realize at auction?

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $50-100k. The 1913 Liberty head nickel case fetched $15k a while back and is not nearly as elaborate or historical

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 4:27PM

    ............

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 4:31PM

    @ms70 said:
    ............

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    $50-100k. The 1913 Liberty head nickel case fetched $15k a while back and is not nearly as elaborate or historical

    That sounds reasonable to me. Before I read that post, $50k and $100k were the two numbers that first came to mind. Of course, if for some reason, the owner of the set didn’t also have the presentation case, I think the number could be much higher.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Buy the coins, not the holder (presentation box). :smiley:

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @ms70 said:
    ............

    Wow, the Colonel lost for words. When does the asteroid strike?

    TDN & Mark, I don't doubt the "box" has value but $50K ~ $100K leaves $8.4 million on the table for the coins (probably more today). So even by your recognition the "box" is valued at about 1% of the coins. I'm sure someone could come up with a gilded presentation box to permanently house the slabbed coins and the original "box" would become an afterthought.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,920 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @ms70 said:
    ............

    Wow, the Colonel lost for words. When does the asteroid strike?

    TDN & Mark, I don't doubt the "box" has value but $50K ~ $100K leaves $8.4 million on the table for the coins (probably more today). So even by your recognition the "box" is valued at about 1% of the coins. I'm sure someone could come up with a gilded presentation box to permanently house the slabbed coins and the original "box" would become an afterthought.

    As I mentioned, I believe that the value to the owner of the set could be much higher. And whatever the dollar number placed upon it, to some of us, the “value” is far greater than monetary. I don’t think anything would ever make it an “afterthought”.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not an afterthought. Let’s not forget that the box changed the whole perception of the Class I 1804 dollar. Even the great Eric Newman had to eat some crow because of it.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2021 5:35PM

    ...........

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @ms70 said:
    ............

    ...........

    ...........

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • edwardjulioedwardjulio Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2021 10:26AM

    NLH

    End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us

  • SoCalBigMarkSoCalBigMark Posts: 2,786 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i think he meant pew.

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @pmh1nic said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @ms70 said:
    ............

    Wow, the Colonel lost for words. When does the asteroid strike?

    TDN & Mark, I don't doubt the "box" has value but $50K ~ $100K leaves $8.4 million on the table for the coins (probably more today). So even by your recognition the "box" is valued at about 1% of the coins. I'm sure someone could come up with a gilded presentation box to permanently house the slabbed coins and the original "box" would become an afterthought.

    As I mentioned, I believe that the value to the owner of the set could be much higher. And whatever the dollar number placed upon it, to some of us, the “value” is far greater than monetary. I don’t think anything would ever make it an “afterthought”.

    You and TDN put the $50K ~ $100K price tag on it. The math does the rest (1%). When you say the value is "far greater" you contradict the value you asigned to the "box". We always talk about the value being whatever someone is willing to pay for something. In your expert opinion that number was $50K ~ 100K.

    But here is another way to ask the question. Do you think the set would have sold for substantially less had the "box" not been included? Was the "box" given more than a sentence in the last auction listing? I doubt it.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @edwardjulio said:
    Box:

    Put the coin in that box for a few years and the value will go up dramatically. Nice work.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin

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