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"Is this authentic?" - ask for opinions here

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    That is amazing what people are trying to get.

    I say just be patient. You can hopefully do better price-wise.

    @JBK said:
    That is amazing what people are trying to get.

    I say just be patient. You can hopefully do better price-wise.

    I hope so. I will keep an eye on eBay. I just got to make sure I find an authentic one. RRAuction is always very expensive because it’s more sure authenticity wise while with eBay you take the chance you get a convincing fake so you really got to know what you are doing.

    In high school I knew a teacher that had met Rosa Parks at Bill Clinton’s Inauguration and got her autograph on the back of the invitation to the Inauguration - best part is it was NOT personalized and it was dated too - 1/20/93!! I used to have a picture of it but unfortunately that got lost when my photo bucket was ransomed.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2022 5:40AM

    Update: This Rosa Parks signed FDC I bid $495 on ended up going for $660!

    This one which I didn’t like (looks off to me for some reason) ended up going for a lot more than I expected, $491. If it’s authentic then it was just under my price range, but I wanted something I was 100% sure of and felt comfortable with if I was going to buy one.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Those prices are amazing.

    I'd be happy to have one RP, but imagine if you had started decades ago. You could have enough from her to use for a down payment on a house.

    There are a couple historical people who were easy to get back in the day and I got 10 or twelve responses over time. Not quite worth RP money, though.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2022 5:41AM

    .

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This 1983 letter came with a large group of letters from governors from the 1970s and 1980s. Any thoughts on authenticity?

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The “Bill” part definitely looks right but “Clinton” leads me to question if perhaps it is signed by a secretary. Also the BC:nc:yh makes me wonder about its authenticity too. I know BC means Bill Clinton dictated the contents of the letter, and one set of initials after it is probably who typed the letter on the typewriter but is the third set of initials indication that someone signed Bill Clinton’s signature? Hmm…Hope we can figure this out. I want to believe it’s real but upon looking at it further I wonder about those third set of initials and the last name part of the signature not quite looking 100% right to me.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just did some searching around and I found this Bill Clinton autopen Governor of Arkansas letter:

    Definitely autopen but a few things to note: There is only one set of initials after BC meaning no one signed for Clinton since a machine did that. Also the “Clinton” gives us an idea of how his signature looked during his Governor days. Not sure of date of this letter as it was not pictured in its entirety.

    Another example from 1980 with autopen:

    And a separate card that matches it:

    Interestingly this letter has two sets of initials after BC…hmmm.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thx for the feedback. Some good analysis as usual.

    I don't necessarily disagree with any of it, but I see the unusual three sets of initials as a mystery but not necessarily disqualifying.

    Maybe #2 wrote the letter and #3 typed it? (The content was specific to the sender but somewhat routine.)

    The other question is, why would he use a secretary to sign this if he was already using autopens for some letters?

    I agree that the "Bill" looks very good. I only wish the last name didn't trail off.

    I am pretty confident that it isn't an autopen. If you expand the photo you can get a good sense of the pen strokes. I see a felt tip pen being pushed rightward by a left-handed writer across paper that has a fairly rough surface. He may have just given up by the time he got to the last "on". :smiley:

    I might send a copy to the Clinton Library to see if they have any insight on the initials.

    Thx again for looking!

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2022 4:52AM

    I looked at all the past auctions on RE Auctions and quite a few of Clinton's signatures trail off at the end. I am a little more optimistic now.

    Plus, the C in his last name is pretty consistently smaller than the B in Bill in authentic signatures. So, my letter thankfully follows that pattern.

    Plus, the "i" in Bill is usually taller than the double "l" so it follows that as well.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    I looked at all the past auctions on RE Auctions and quite a few of Clinton's signatures trail off at the end. I am a little more optmisr8c now.

    Plus, the C in his last name is pretty consistently smaller than the B in Bill in authentic signatures. So, my letter thankfully follows that pattern.

    Plus, the "i" in Bill is usually taller than the double "l" so it follows that as well.

    Even though I am not a fan of the stickers, I think you should send it to Beckett and have the sticker placed on the LOA. If they authenticated that it would be awesome and be interesting to see what they think.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What are your opinions on this one? Authentic or forgery, or possibly secretarial? It’s $300 starting bid so risky if it turns out fake but if authentic about half the price the FDC sold for on RRAuction.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2022 9:01AM

    That Rosa Parks autograph I posted above just ended on eBay. Starting bid was $300. It ended up going for nearly $500 (after shipping and tax it is likely just over $500).

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/An-Article-with-Rosa-Parks-SIGNED-by-Rosa-Parks-1986-/134006885432?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

    This one was a risk due to authenticity questions. I thought it was likely authentic but I was not confident enough so I did NOT bid. Interesting it went for $500 despite it not being authenticated or having any information about where/how seller came to obtain it. If it were mentioned the seller got it ttm themselves that would had given me some confidence about its authenticity, especially if other items they were selling were other typical ttm type items from the time period this was signed.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! I continue to be amazed by those prices.

    I really don't have enough experience with her signature to be totally confident in a random signed item.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    Wow! I continue to be amazed by those prices.

    I really don't have enough experience with her signature to be totally confident in a random signed item.

    Totally agree. RBG on the other hand I feel more comfortable with as I have studied her signature much more.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2022 9:24AM

    Months ago I wrote to Barack Obama to ask if was sending out signed bookplates for his recent book (this was pre-Springsteen book).

    Today i got this back. He did not use my SASE, used an envelope that was much larger than necessary, and overpaid on postage.

    But, they used cardboard. :D

    I am assuming it is an autopen.

    It is on an adhesive-backed paper.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    Months ago I wrote to Barack Obama to ask if was sending out signed bookplates for his recent book (this was pre-Springsteen book).

    Tiday i got this back. He did not use my SASE, used an envelope that was much larger than necessary, and overpaid on postage.

    But, they used cardboard. :D

    I am assuming it is an autopen.

    It is on an adhesive-backed paper.

    Picture did not post.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JMS1223 said:

    @JBK said:
    Months ago I wrote to Barack Obama to ask if was sending out signed bookplates for his recent book (this was pre-Springsteen book).

    Tiday i got this back. He did not use my SASE, used an envelope that was much larger than necessary, and overpaid on postage.

    But, they used cardboard. :D

    I am assuming it is an autopen.

    It is on an adhesive-backed paper.

    Picture did not post.

    Thx.
    :D

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    I am assuming it is an autopen.

    Definitely autopen. It looks like a new autopen he just got as it more resembles his recent signatures.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2022 2:19PM

    I went through my notes today.

    It turns out that Obama autopen was a reply to a request for a bookplate that I sent 11 months ago. :o

    Almost a year for an autopen! :#

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2022 3:24PM

    @JBK said:
    I went through my notes today.

    It turns out that Obama autopen was a reply to a request for a bookplate that I sent 11 months ago. :o

    Almost a year for an autopen! :#

    That’s insane. Not sure if I know of any ttm that took longer where result was a fake of some kind.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have my own thoughts and opinions on this one, but thought I would post here and ask your opinions.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks very deliberately signed - "drawn" as they say.

    Looks very round and "cutesy" if that makes any sense.

    Looks very similar to RP's handwriting, but she wrote her name (and date) quickly. ;)

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    Looks very deliberately signed - "drawn" as they say.

    Looks very round and "cutesy" if that makes any sense.

    Looks very similar to RP's handwriting, but she wrote her name (and date) quickly. ;)

    That was exactly what I thought and wanted to see if anyone else felt that way. Good to know. It’s on eBay right now with a starting bid of $250. Will be interesting to see if and how much it sells.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Update: The suspicious Rosa Parks signature sold for $250 on eBay. Guess many knew to avoid it as it would had sold much higher if more were fooled but someone did take the bait.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's actually very good news.

    I hope the buyer is suspicious at the low price and gets it authenticated. They are in for a surprise. >:)

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Confirmed: Barack Obama has a new autopen pattern. He uses it to “sign” his book and bookplates ttm. I found two on eBay (one book and one bookplate) and used JBK’s bookplate example to compare and sure enough AUTOPEN!



    My two comparisons confirm autopen on all three examples. First comparison showing three examples more spread about so you can see there are three being compared. Second comparison with the three directly on top of each other - there are little tiny variations due to photo angles and size differences.

    eBay book

    eBay bookplate

    JBK bookplate

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good work!

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    Some autographs you just cant find : Han Ying Chieh aka Lees nemesis in Big Boss0

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    DominoDomino Posts: 3
    edited February 23, 2022 3:38PM

    Hi, any guidance on whether this Julia Child autograph is authentic or a forgery?

    *edited with actual photo instead of a link

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I go to that auction I don't see any photos. :/

    I know that she was a willing signer over the years, and I am sure she signed lots of cookbooks.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    When I go to that auction I don't see any photos. :/

    Here you go

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    DominoDomino Posts: 3
    edited February 23, 2022 3:42PM

    Finally got the picture to post directly! Thanks as well for the help with posting JMS

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just looked briefly at others on the internet and this one seems to compare favorably.

    Plus, it's on a special bookplate (not sure why they stuck it in off center).

    So, it looks fairly likely to be authentic.

    Were you the high bidder on ebay? Best to ask before you bid. ;)

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BTW, Julia Child is known as a famous chef, but she was also a spy for the Allies during WWII.

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    I don’t want to influence any independent analysis at all, so I won’t go into too much detail. But no, I’m not the buyer, and yes, I’d completely agree that any one buying signatures on eBay should look at pictures, ask any questions, and do any authenticity analysis possible just by picture before purchasing. Pretty foolish and irresponsible not to.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do you think these are possibly autopen? They are not personalized and I heard Sandra Day O’Connor has more than one autopen pattern so it’s difficult to find all known examples of her known autopen patterns. I heard from a fellow member that authentic examples were usually signed close to the top of whatever was signed so nothing could be added above her signature whereas autopen ones are signed in the center or leave lots of space up top.

    I am thinking of buying either of these if they turn out likely authentic but I don’t want to waste money on something that turns out to be autopen.


    This one has room above so it makes me nervous it might be autopen but doesn’t show the typical stops or shakiness you see in most autopen signatures.


    This one is signed close to top. So might be authentic. More expensive and item itself is not in the greatest condition but affordable for my budget.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Update: Upon rethinking about this I decided not to bid on either because, even if authentic, I want to wait for one I like 100%. I know if I buy the photo I will be not 100% satisfied due to the condition not being ideal. If I buy the signature on ripped off bookplate I will also not be completely happy as it has condition issues. So I was thinking, if I bought either, I know I would later regret it when a much better and nicer one comes along.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2022 6:58AM

    These are authentic but can be misleading as to what is actually signed so I thought I would bring this up here. Many here are probably already aware that some people will take authentic autographs from a book or a signed page that has lots of white space and print or add to that same signed paper to make it appear that the altered piece was signed when in reality it was just a signature that had something added/printed on top to attempt to enhance the value. I have noticed a lot of times the price does go up dramatically when the signature is altered into a new piece. Earliest examples I have seen with this occurring was with Richard Nixon where they would take a signed page from a book that had just his signature on it then print his resignation letter on top of it so it appears you are buying a signed copy of his resignation letter. These typically went for far more than just a simple Nixon signature.

    Now I have been seeing this happen with Obama. First it was happening with signatures removed from his A Promised Land book where the signed page was vertical and could accommodate mock letters and birth certificates as well as bin Laden wanted flyers. With the recent Renegades book, the page is more horizontal due to Bruce Springsteen’s signature taking up the top half of the page. So a lot less options of making up things to print over…well the other day I found this for sale on eBay:

    Someone cut the page out of the book, removed the Springsteen signature from the top half and cleverly found a way to over print this famous photo on top of the signed paper. It almost looks like the “photo” was signed but the signature looks far too big and much of it gets hidden by the darkness of picture that was printed on top. Nevertheless it managed to sell for $700+. I looked in ended auctions and noticed two more like this (also each bringing the $700 range), but the placement of picture was a little different due to varying size of signed paper. So picture was either cropped off at bottom or sides but they still managed to make it look like a signed “photo” when in reality it is a signature with a picture printed on top. I hope those that bought these knew what they were buying and not thinking it was an actual photo signed. The top of the slab does say “signed cut” so I hope people pick up on that. Also the size of the piece is far less than the typical 10x8 one would expect if they were expecting it to be a signed photo.

    Also noticed a mock birth certificate done with the Renegades signatures. They cropped the birth certificate so it could fit.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've seen lots of the Nixon ones. Marginally interesting but clearly contrived.

    These Obamas are just plain weird. Like you said, totally unnatural in size. Great photo reproduction on the paper, but fantasy pieces just the same.

    I don't think Obama ever signed much TTM, so that increases the market for these types of things.

    I never understood how they can print over it and still see the signature so clearly. I would think upon close examination the authenticators should be able to tell what is going on, in which case they should note it.

    Post-signature enhancements should not, on my opinion, add any significant value.

    I recall once that a collector bought an index card signed by Albert Einstein for a large premium because ot had "E=MC2" typed above the sigbsture. It was presented to give the impression that it was created that way when in fact he proved that the typewriter used was not available during Einstein's lifetime. He got a refund but the dealer was unapologetic. :/

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:

    Post-signature enhancements should not, on my opinion, add any significant value.

    I recall once that a collector bought an index card signed by Albert Einstein for a large premium because ot had "E=MC2" typed above the sigbsture. It was presented to give the impression that it was created that way when in fact he proved that the typewriter used was not available during Einstein's lifetime. He got a refund but the dealer was unapologetic. :/

    I totally agree but unfortunately I have seen the bin Laden “posters” and mock birth certificates sell for over $1000, even on RR Auction. I wonder why people are paying so much more for these. I would much rather have the signature as is and not altered.

    Interesting about the Einstein signature. Lucky the E=mc2 was added much later rather than shortly after the signature was signed, otherwise there would had been no way of knowing it was altered after it was signed since the typewriter would had been from Einstein’s era.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JMS1223 said:

    I totally agree but unfortunately I have seen the bin Laden “posters” and mock birth certificates sell for over $1000, even on RR Auction.

    This is very disturbing, even disgusting. The dealers/auctioneers sold be clearly stating that it is added graphics.

    I have seen dealers in the past who would point out that content was added later, but sellers these days don't seem to mention it.

    In addition to concocted Nixon resignations, Jimmy Carter signed quotes and other passages are frequently encountered. He signed tons of books at book signings, often signing on the blank page.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2022 7:58AM

    @JBK said:

    @JMS1223 said:

    I totally agree but unfortunately I have seen the bin Laden “posters” and mock birth certificates sell for over $1000, even on RR Auction.

    This is very disturbing, even disgusting. The dealers/auctioneers sold be clearly stating that it is added graphics.

    I have seen dealers in the past who would point out that content was added later, but sellers these days don't seem to mention it.

    In addition to concocted Nixon resignations, Jimmy Carter signed quotes and other passages are frequently encountered. He signed tons of books at book signings, often signing on the blank page.

    To be fair a few I have seen on eBay and RR Auction have mentioned the graphics were added after, but MOST are just sold as is which is very sad indeed.

    I just noticed the Jimmy Carter ones today while browsing too. Wow! They even have Donald Trump ones as well (also all selling for far more than the signature unaltered). So I guess they are doing this with most US Presidents (even seen it done with some non-Presidents but that seems less common). Not so many Reagan or Clinton ones though…hmm.

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As a side note, I just thought of why Reagan and Clinton might be less common to have signed blank pages…their signatures stems be much smaller in size than George W. Bush, Obama, Trump, and even Carter. Nixon, however, would be an exception as his signature was smaller than those usually found on blank pages. They signed large so signing a blank page would seem more likely to happen. More room.

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    Klif50Klif50 Posts: 663 ✭✭✭✭

    Here is a Lester Maddox signed document when he was Governor of Georgia. Any ideas if it is real or autopen?

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    Klif50Klif50 Posts: 663 ✭✭✭✭

    Here is another document signed by Ronald Regan (or his autopen). Any ideas on whether it is real of autopen?

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    Klif50Klif50 Posts: 663 ✭✭✭✭

    Last one for today (cleaning out boxes that have been in the closet for a lot of years). The Rock Band Paul Revere and the Raiders came to Misawa AB, Japan in 1991 with the USO. I got this picture then but didn't actually see them sign. Are they real or are they the same hand?

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the first two are real. Do not have knowledge on Paul Revere and the Raiders‘ autographs. Wouldn’t surprise me if also authentic.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Those extradition documents are great. I have a couple from a Pennsylvania governor from the 1930s or 1940s.

    I assume (can be dangerous to do that) that these are hand signed. First, they generally look good, but second, they are serious legal docs. Although, the signature below Reagan's seems to be a rubber stamp. 🤔

    With Reagan you also have to worry about secretarials, but once again, I doubt it's an issue on something Ike this.

    The band photo, assuming it's not a preprint, is probably good, or atleast not all signed by the same person.

    That's one heck of a closet you have!

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    JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JMS1223 said:
    Update: This Rosa Parks signed FDC I bid $495 on ended up going for $660!

    Back on the auction block but this time on eBay for $1500 Buy It Now! Now comes with Beckett Authentication but thankfully the ugly sticker (now bigger with QR code added that will likely not work in a decade or two) is on the LOA.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,788 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2022 2:25PM

    This comparison was posted on another site. The circled areas are one person's evidence that there are differences between the two and therefore they can't be autopens.

    These are two different photos, which accounts for the size difference.

    Any opinions?

    (Vice President Spiro Agnew).

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