The only way to collect classic commems IMHO is PCGS MS65 or higher grades. You will still get some or most of your money back. I purchased the coin in this NGC holder around 2005 from an ebay seller for $14 plus postage. Mintage 8,003.
Really?? an NGC slabbed MS 64 1953-P Washington Carver half dollar Commemorative for $14 with a mintage of only 8,003?? I will buy all i can find at this price.
The thing is that the classic commems especially those minted after 1945 have never gotten any respect. If low mintages do not bring much of a premium, it means that there are not many collectors out there. I would think that there would be more then 8,000 classic commemorative half dollar collectors of the 144 coin set out there, but there may not be. I am trying to get them all, but at a very slow pace.
A lot of dealers (such as J. J. Teaparty) low price a lot of them just to move them out and free up the money because the market is just not there. JMHO
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
This is the silver & gold commemorative index from PCGS.com. The declines may have looked worse if you had a Red Book from 1990 that captured that peak.
@BillJones said:
These coins were heavily promoted in the late 1980s. The promoters had lines like, "Look at the low mintages." What they didn't tell you about were the high survival rates, for some pieces, even in MS-65 or 66.
If you look ta the chart and think about the pump and dump, are Classic Commems still above their pre-pump prices? To me, it seems reasonable to think so, in which case, they are still up!
Of course, i don't think these charts are that useful without taking into account rising populations. Instead of looking ata just grades, it would be informative to look at whatever grade was a "pop 10" or "pop 100" coin per year.
The pump and dump was after 1986 when slabbing started and the "investment groups" arrived. So, if you go back to 1985, you are actually still down over those 36 years. But even if you are flat or slightly up, it's been almost FORTY YEARS. That is NOT an increase in value.
Good to know.
So, price-wise, commemoratives are a disaster and there is no escaping it. But that has nothing to do with the coins. There are some really interesting designs and some very pretty coins. You may not want the whole 144 coin set. But there's no reason not to add a commem or two to your U.S. collection.
If it's not the coins, what do you think is causing the price depression? Bill's post seems to indicate he believes it is partially due to the coins.
I think many of them can go lower. If you just look at supply and demand, there seems to be quite a bit of supply for many issues.
It is partly due to the coins, many of which should never have been issued as Bill described. It's a random assortment which US collectors call a series. Except for hole fillers, there is no reason for anyone to want all 50 or 144. The supply is "low" but not for the prices and quality.
@rec78 said:
The only way to collect classic commems IMHO is PCGS MS65 or higher grades. You will still get some or most of your money back.
Please see my post near the end of the prior page. My point made there in more detail is that for the past three years, these prices have been somewhat steady, or declining only a small amount.
Yes, my set is mainly MS65-MS67, but here's some very interesting pricing data. I bought most of these coins two years ago:
Out of the 50 coins in my Commem Type Set (ALL with CAC's), only 16 cost me more than the current PCGS Price Guide (and that guide includes prices without CAC's). 34 coins with CAC's cost me less than the current PCGS Price Guide!
Of the 50 coins (again, all with CAC's) my cost is 89.9% (let's call it 90%) of the current PCGS Price Guide (and that guide includes prices without CAC's)!
Yes, that's nothing to shout from rooftops, but my point is that pricing has steadied. Looking back 28 years in the OP is just scary stuff that doesn't necessarily predict the next 28 years will also see a drop of 68% from todays pricing! As noted earlier, yes, that big drop happened, but what really matters is where do prices go from here? I suspect they'll be somewhat steady, even if not higher than now.
So please don't use that old data to scare people away from collecting these beautiful designs (many of them), all with interesting histories (good and bad). Have some FUN!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
"Except for hole fillers, there is no reason for anyone to want all 50 or 144."
HUH? There are lots of reasons for people to want all 50 and 144. I have the LOC albums for all the 144 and I intend to fill them. I want all 144. A lot of people want 50 - one of each type.
By your reasoning there is no reason for anyone to want any coins. There are lots of collectors that don't collect in albums and don't have any. They collect what they like and some like just coins in slabs and collect commems in slabs. Albums are for me, but not for everyone. Just to be able to put together an entire set of commems is reason enough.
@rec78 said:
"Except for hole fillers, there is no reason for anyone to want all 50 or 144."
HUH? There are lots of reasons for people to want all 50 and 144. I have the LOC albums for all the 144 and I intend to fill them. I want all 144. A lot of people want 50 - one of each type.
By your reasoning there is no reason for anyone to want any coins. There are lots of collectors that don't collect in albums and don't have any. They collect what they like and some like just coins in slabs and collect commems in slabs. Albums are for me, but not for everyone. Just to be able to put together an entire set of commems is reason enough.
Let me rephrase it. It isn't like collecting any other US series. It's evident relatively few collectors (in the context of US collecting) have an interest in the entire series. That's why the prices have been declining. The 50 or 144 coin sets are too expensive for most collectors who have the money where they would choose it over something else.
I agree these coins are mostly collected in isolation or limited number, if that's what you are also saying. This is evident in the more expensive ones, such as Hawaii or Pac Pac. Neither of those are cheap, even though cheaper than previously.
@rec78 said:
The only way to collect classic commems IMHO is PCGS MS65 or higher grades. You will still get some or most of your money back. I purchased the coin in this NGC holder around 2005 from an ebay seller for $14 plus postage. Mintage 8,003.
Really?? an NGC slabbed MS 64 1953-P Washington Carver half dollar Commemorative for $14 with a mintage of only 8,003?? I will buy all i can find at this price.
The thing is that the classic commems especially those minted after 1945 have never gotten any respect. If low mintages do not bring much of a premium, it means that there are not many collectors out there. I would think that there would be more then 8,000 classic commemorative half dollar collectors of the 144 coin set out there, but there may not be. I am trying to get them all, but at a very slow pace.
A lot of dealers (such as J. J. Teaparty) low price a lot of them just to move them out and free up the money because the market is just not there. JMHO.
The reason they sell so poorly and get no respect is the fact that the Washington Carver is a profoundly butt-ugly commemorative. Just a horrid bus-token-like coin. For $14? At that price, I would turn it in and have it melted for its silver content so that one more Washington Carver is taken off this earth.
As far as Classic Commemoratives go, I'm only interested in a handful due to design, but I want them with attractive toning and in grades of 65 through 67, where possible. I am one of those guys who couldn't care less about value increases or declines. I just enjoy collecting coins I like. I do have a few sets in progress (which I will probably never finish) but if a coin design or subject matter interests me, I'll buy it.
Thank all of you for your input. I really appreciate a good thread like this one.
@rec78 said:
The only way to collect classic commems IMHO is PCGS MS65 or higher grades. You will still get some or most of your money back. I purchased the coin in this NGC holder around 2005 from an ebay seller for $14 plus postage. Mintage 8,003.
Really?? an NGC slabbed MS 64 1953-P Washington Carver half dollar Commemorative for $14 with a mintage of only 8,003?? I will buy all i can find at this price.
The thing is that the classic commems especially those minted after 1945 have never gotten any respect. If low mintages do not bring much of a premium, it means that there are not many collectors out there. I would think that there would be more then 8,000 classic commemorative half dollar collectors of the 144 coin set out there, but there may not be. I am trying to get them all, but at a very slow pace.
A lot of dealers (such as J. J. Teaparty) low price a lot of them just to move them out and free up the money because the market is just not there. JMHO.
The reason they sell so poorly and get no respect is the fact that the Washington Carver is a profoundly butt-ugly commemorative. Just a horrid bus-token-like coin. For $14? At that price, I would turn it in and have it melted for its silver content so that one more Washington Carver is taken off this earth.
Of course, you may feel otherwise about them.
I feel the same way about 1916-D dimes. Let's melt all those ugly AG coins so we have a real rarity.
@rec78 said:
The only way to collect classic commems IMHO is PCGS MS65 or higher grades. You will still get some or most of your money back.
Please see my post near the end of the prior page. My point made there in more detail is that for the past three years, these prices have been somewhat steady, or declining only a small amount.
Yes, my set is mainly MS65-MS67, but here's some very interesting pricing data. I bought most of these coins two years ago:
Out of the 50 coins in my Commem Type Set (ALL with CAC's), only 16 cost me more than the current PCGS Price Guide (and that guide includes prices without CAC's). 34 coins with CAC's cost me less than the current PCGS Price Guide!
Of the 50 coins (again, all with CAC's) my cost is 89.9% (let's call it 90%) of the current PCGS Price Guide (and that guide includes prices without CAC's)!
Yes, that's nothing to shout from rooftops, but my point is that pricing has steadied. Looking back 28 years in the OP is just scary stuff that doesn't necessarily predict the next 28 years will also see a drop of 68% from todays pricing! As noted earlier, yes, that big drop happened, but what really matters is where do prices go from here? I suspect they'll be somewhat steady, even if not higher than now.
So please don't use that old data to scare people away from collecting these beautiful designs (many of them), all with interesting histories (good and bad). Have some FUN!
I said that mostly in jest. I enjoy collecting circulated commemoratives because I like the look of circulated coins and the challenge of assembling them in circulated grades. Tough to find a Texas where the devices are as enhanced by toning as this circulated one. The details pop out on the Alamo with its rich mahogany background toning. Same with the Long Island above. Look at the hair detail and separation of the two figures! They come alive to me!
I try to get them for reasonable prices but I don't collect them as an investment at all. The Long Island is a Julian Leidman BIN ANACS special that I paid 50% over PCGS book value for. I just had to have it! I don't care if it continues to drop in value because it's paid for itself in personal enjoyment many times over. The same goes for two dozen other circulated commemoratives that I own. Wait until you see the Lincoln I submitted (out of four that I love) for grading simply to get the Trueview picture of it. Stay tuned.
That said, since I've been collecting circulated commemoratives around 12-14 years ago, they've dropped about 25% over that time; some more than others, of course. I've also noticed that some dates are beginning to stabilize and show some life. That's nice, but it really doesn't matter to me.
@WingedLiberty1957 , those are some real monsters you posted up above! My personal favorites are the Gettysburg and Norfolk. Drop me a line if you're ever looking to sell, assuming you still own them!
The 50 or 144 coin sets are too expensive for most collectors who have the money where they would choose it over something else.
You raise a good point - putting together a 50 coin circulated set, if one could find them would most likely run $10,000. However, about $18,000 for a MS64 set seems like a bargain. And you would have no "cheap" coins as part of your set.
And who doesn't like an Oregon with its glorious, iconic reverse for the ages! Or the quiet tranquility of the Antetiam reverse knowing what happened at that site 158 years ago. Same with the more solemn, symbolic Gettysburg. Or the Lincoln with its propensity to tone beautifully. Even the inexpensive Columbian, Stone Mountain, and Pilgrim are very nice-looking coins.
In all fairness, those that anticipated classic commems to rise in value expected that these coins, for various reasons, would have a broader following and greater interest than just numismatists. I am not sure these will ever have the appeal to the masses... there are enough of them to promote so perhaps the final chapter is yet to be written.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The 50 or 144 coin sets are too expensive for most collectors who have the money where they would choose it over something else.
You raise a good point - putting together a 50 coin circulated set, if one could find them would most likely run $10,000. However, about $18,000 for a MS64 set seems like a bargain. And you would have no "cheap" coins as part of your set.
I'm not sure it's possible to pay $18,000 for the set you describe where it is concurrently very marketable. By "marketable", being able to get most of your money back even if prices stay flat. Outside of the most expensive such as the Lafayette dollar, Hawaii, and Pan Pac, I'm guessing that it is not. It's my inference that most collectors know this and don't like all the coins enough to lose money on it.
For $18,000 and to add variety in my collection, I'd rather buy a partial US type set even if the quality is (somewhat) lower. A coin like the 1853 A&R half is more marketable, most collectors like it a lot more than most classic commemoratives, and it's common enough where it's possible to buy nice ones in circulated grades for a comparable price.
Classic Commems a good buy right now so much scarcer than generic dollars. Blow out generic dollars way overpriced IMO then buy classic Commems not a bad idea.
I'm not sure it's possible to pay $18,000 for the set you describe where it is concurrently very marketable. By "marketable", being able to get most of your money back even if prices stay flat. Outside of the most expensive such as the Lafayette dollar, Hawaii, and Pan Pac, I'm guessing that it is not. It's my inference that most collectors know this and don't like all the coins enough to lose money on it.
This may surprise many collectors. According to the PCGS Price Guide the estimated cost for a 50 coin type set would be:
According to CPG (directly linked to greysheet) a 50 coin type set of Classic Silver Commems is $17,000 MS64 and $25,500 MS65. MS64 per David Hall book is minimum investment grade.
I have ordered their CAC Market review which has CPG for CAC. Since all my CAC coins sold out at present this will come in handy if making any bids / offers on CAC material either on the Bay or from my table at shows (pct of CPG) in future.
CPG is a MV price based on CDN bid. I have CPG app in phone for both non CAC and CAC but like analyze the big picture (printed publication).
Just curious- is anyone of you a fan of the gold dollars and quarter eagles related to this set? The big $50 golds are financially not of interest to me although they are beautiful, but the smaller set is only 13 coins and pretty affordable. Some designs are pretty basic, but the two quarter eagles and the Grant and Pan PAC dollar coins are pretty nice (just my opinion).
I'm not sure it's possible to pay $18,000 for the set you describe where it is concurrently very marketable. By "marketable", being able to get most of your money back even if prices stay flat. Outside of the most expensive such as the Lafayette dollar, Hawaii, and Pan Pac, I'm guessing that it is not. It's my inference that most collectors know this and don't like all the coins enough to lose money on it.
This may surprise many collectors. According to the PCGS Price Guide the estimated cost for a 50 coin type set would be:
MS 63 $15,910
MS 64 $18,783
MS 65 $28,650
How much is the likely spread between buying and selling most of these coins? This is mostly what I was getting at in my last post.
If collectors can recover 90% in flat market, more than I believe might be interested. If it's 80% or less, a lot less compelling, especially when the buyer might not even like most of the coins that much. It's even worse on the mostly one way downward market of the last 30+ years.
@Orlena said:
Just curious- is anyone of you a fan of the gold dollars and quarter eagles related to this set? The big $50 golds are financially not of interest to me although they are beautiful, but the smaller set is only 13 coins and pretty affordable. Some designs are pretty basic, but the two quarter eagles and the Grant and Pan PAC dollar coins are pretty nice (just my opinion).
I have no interest in buying these two series and never did. But I have on occasion checked the TPG population data, prices and Coin Facts. My recollection is most (and maybe all) are quite expensive for the supply, dollars more than quarter eagle.
@Orlena said:
Just curious- is anyone of you a fan of the gold dollars and quarter eagles related to this set? The big $50 golds are financially not of interest to me although they are beautiful, but the smaller set is only 13 coins and pretty affordable. Some designs are pretty basic, but the two quarter eagles and the Grant and Pan PAC dollar coins are pretty nice (just my opinion).
The small sized gold commemorative set is 11 coins rather than 13 coins. I have a set and they are all very neat coins. The $2.5 Panama Pacific Exposition gold coin has a particularly nice design. Miss Liberty is shown riding on the back of a hippocampus (mythological animal that's half horse and half sea serpent) while holding a caduceus symbolizing the eradication of yellow fever.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks, I stand corrected. I currently have 8, including the two quarter eagles. I’m a big fan of the designs. My favorite is actually the pan pac dollar with the worker on the obverse
@koynekwest said:
Those are beauties. I'd love to have one. If they are AT they have me fooled. There are several similar to this one but I'm quite sure it isn't AT-
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That one is from ebay seller KPL who had a presence on ebay for a few years. Out of Sandy, Utah and all of their stuff looked similar. Forumites petitioned PCGS and got them shut down.
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Well, they did a helluva job with AT then. I didn't pay much of a premium for my Ike so no major harm done. They must have gassed them in the original holder because mine wasn't slabbed.
I've enjoyed collecting them over the last several years. With commems, it's all about the toning (whatever you want to say about it). Here are a couple of my favorites
There is no comparison to what has happened with run of the mill white/crusty brown early Commems and the colorfully toned ones above. Apples and oranges.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
There is no comparison to what has happened with run of the mill white/crusty brown early Commems and the colorfully toned ones above. Apples and oranges.
@bolivarshagnasty said: @koynekwest "I've said it before and I'll say it again-that Congress dollar has PERFECT toning on the obverse. What a coin!"
Practice makes perfect. EDM would be glad to make you one.
I actually think it's chance more than practice. If it was practice, there would be a lot more perfect coins, which there aren't. If you find more perfect ones, let me know and I'll buy them
I used to argue NT and AT a lot, but the reality is that both are chemical reactions and surface oxidation. "Intent" isn't a scientifically sound reason to distinguish coins. If there are 4 coins that have a similar look, that's not so different from having 4 coins tone in an album. And a single toner coin is still surface oxidation, no more and no less.
Stability is important to me, however, if the color is stable and I like it, that's good enough.
I have been working on the 50 coin silver series of classics for years. If you get into the history of each coin, you'll learn a great deal. Obviously, they are not everyone's cup of tea but wouldn't it be a boring world if everyone liked the same thing? Someone mentioned that the coins in the series are readily available and while that is true, it is increasingly more difficult to find examples that haven't been messed with. Try to find a Lafayette dollar that hasn't been cleaned. They are out there but I wouldn't say that they are easy to find unless you have no budgetary concerns. If you haven't already, go to this webpage to start your journey: https://www.money.org/commemorative-coins
@bolivarshagnasty said:
There is no comparison to what has happened with run of the mill white/crusty brown early Commems and the colorfully toned ones above. Apples and oranges.
Yes, some are colorful and some are not!
How many of the "colorful" commemoratives have had help getting their color?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@bolivarshagnasty said:
There is no comparison to what has happened with run of the mill white/crusty brown early Commems and the colorfully toned ones above. Apples and oranges.
Yes, some are colorful and some are not!
How many of the "colorful" commemoratives have had help getting their color?
Depends on what type of color you refer to. The rainbow toning is always a question. A lot of the commems have original skin because of the cardboard holders they were distributed in.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
There is no comparison to what has happened with run of the mill white/crusty brown early Commems and the colorfully toned ones above. Apples and oranges.
Yes, some are colorful and some are not!
How many of the "colorful" commemoratives have had help getting their color?
I'm not sure, a lot have been posted here. What do you think?
@bolivarshagnasty said:
There is no comparison to what has happened with run of the mill white/crusty brown early Commems and the colorfully toned ones above. Apples and oranges.
Yes, some are colorful and some are not!
How many of the "colorful" commemoratives have had help getting their color?
I'm not sure, a lot have been posted here. What do you think?
Artificial toning, natural toning, and market acceptable toning have been discussed here many times in the past but I've never seen an estimate of what percentage of the commemorative with colorful (rainbow) toning have had help getting that way. Of course we'll never know an exact percentage but I would guess it's fairly high.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@jmlanzaf said:
So, price-wise, commemoratives are a disaster and there is no escaping it. But that has nothing to do with the coins. There are some really interesting designs and some very pretty coins. You may not want the whole 144 coin set. But there's no reason not to add a commem or two to your U.S. collection.
Totally agree with this. All the data on commem populations and pricing trends I've seen suggests they are a terrible investment. And yet, I recently bought my first commem, and even paid a major premium over the price guide for an eye-appealing example, knowing full well that I would be underwater on the coin forever.
Why? It was a Bay Bridge. I've always loved the design. It has personal significance - I grew up in the Bay Area, have many memories of riding over the Bay Bridge as a kid, and the Ferry Building (the most prominent building in the design) is one of my favorite landmarks in San Francisco. I usually buy a coin hoping it's not a stupid investment. This was the first time I bought one that is almost guaranteed to be.
It's supposed to be fun!
Nobody is making money on common date Morgan $s either. Buy them, enjoy them. No one knows the future.
I know I'm gonna enjoy this Bay Bridge for a while, regardless of the future. It's been a long search for a nice dove gray XF-AU example with the waves accented by toning.
I only had two commemorative coins. Nothing special. A '1952 Washington-Carver (MS65) and a 1982-D Washington half (MS68). Got rid of them both. Actually had another now that I think about it. Either 1892 or 1893 Columbian that was raw and mid grade. No interest in commemoratives.
Comments
I say go for key dates or whatever design speaks to you...
Got my eye on a few gold commems... especially the @.50 Pan Pac
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
The only way to collect classic commems IMHO is PCGS MS65 or higher grades. You will still get some or most of your money back. I purchased the coin in this NGC holder around 2005 from an ebay seller for $14 plus postage.
Mintage 8,003.
Really?? an NGC slabbed MS 64 1953-P Washington Carver half dollar Commemorative for $14 with a mintage of only 8,003?? I will buy all i can find at this price.
The thing is that the classic commems especially those minted after 1945 have never gotten any respect. If low mintages do not bring much of a premium, it means that there are not many collectors out there. I would think that there would be more then 8,000 classic commemorative half dollar collectors of the 144 coin set out there, but there may not be. I am trying to get them all, but at a very slow pace.
A lot of dealers (such as J. J. Teaparty) low price a lot of them just to move them out and free up the money because the market is just not there. JMHO
It is partly due to the coins, many of which should never have been issued as Bill described. It's a random assortment which US collectors call a series. Except for hole fillers, there is no reason for anyone to want all 50 or 144. The supply is "low" but not for the prices and quality.
Please see my post near the end of the prior page. My point made there in more detail is that for the past three years, these prices have been somewhat steady, or declining only a small amount.
Yes, my set is mainly MS65-MS67, but here's some very interesting pricing data. I bought most of these coins two years ago:
Yes, that's nothing to shout from rooftops, but my point is that pricing has steadied. Looking back 28 years in the OP is just scary stuff that doesn't necessarily predict the next 28 years will also see a drop of 68% from todays pricing! As noted earlier, yes, that big drop happened, but what really matters is where do prices go from here? I suspect they'll be somewhat steady, even if not higher than now.
So please don't use that old data to scare people away from collecting these beautiful designs (many of them), all with interesting histories (good and bad). Have some FUN!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Hopefully my PO01 and FR02s do ok!
Some of my favorites!
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
ive been picked up some here and there, a good buying opertunity right now
"Except for hole fillers, there is no reason for anyone to want all 50 or 144."
HUH? There are lots of reasons for people to want all 50 and 144. I have the LOC albums for all the 144 and I intend to fill them. I want all 144. A lot of people want 50 - one of each type.
By your reasoning there is no reason for anyone to want any coins. There are lots of collectors that don't collect in albums and don't have any. They collect what they like and some like just coins in slabs and collect commems in slabs. Albums are for me, but not for everyone. Just to be able to put together an entire set of commems is reason enough.
I have the FULL set.
of the purty ones.
Let me rephrase it. It isn't like collecting any other US series. It's evident relatively few collectors (in the context of US collecting) have an interest in the entire series. That's why the prices have been declining. The 50 or 144 coin sets are too expensive for most collectors who have the money where they would choose it over something else.
I agree these coins are mostly collected in isolation or limited number, if that's what you are also saying. This is evident in the more expensive ones, such as Hawaii or Pac Pac. Neither of those are cheap, even though cheaper than previously.
The reason they sell so poorly and get no respect is the fact that the Washington Carver is a profoundly butt-ugly commemorative. Just a horrid bus-token-like coin. For $14? At that price, I would turn it in and have it melted for its silver content so that one more Washington Carver is taken off this earth.
Of course, you may feel otherwise about them.
As far as Classic Commemoratives go, I'm only interested in a handful due to design, but I want them with attractive toning and in grades of 65 through 67, where possible. I am one of those guys who couldn't care less about value increases or declines. I just enjoy collecting coins I like. I do have a few sets in progress (which I will probably never finish) but if a coin design or subject matter interests me, I'll buy it.
Thank all of you for your input. I really appreciate a good thread like this one.
I feel the same way about 1916-D dimes. Let's melt all those ugly AG coins so we have a real rarity.
I said that mostly in jest. I enjoy collecting circulated commemoratives because I like the look of circulated coins and the challenge of assembling them in circulated grades. Tough to find a Texas where the devices are as enhanced by toning as this circulated one. The details pop out on the Alamo with its rich mahogany background toning. Same with the Long Island above. Look at the hair detail and separation of the two figures! They come alive to me!
I try to get them for reasonable prices but I don't collect them as an investment at all. The Long Island is a Julian Leidman BIN ANACS special that I paid 50% over PCGS book value for. I just had to have it! I don't care if it continues to drop in value because it's paid for itself in personal enjoyment many times over. The same goes for two dozen other circulated commemoratives that I own. Wait until you see the Lincoln I submitted (out of four that I love) for grading simply to get the Trueview picture of it. Stay tuned.
That said, since I've been collecting circulated commemoratives around 12-14 years ago, they've dropped about 25% over that time; some more than others, of course. I've also noticed that some dates are beginning to stabilize and show some life. That's nice, but it really doesn't matter to me.
@WingedLiberty1957 , those are some real monsters you posted up above! My personal favorites are the Gettysburg and Norfolk. Drop me a line if you're ever looking to sell, assuming you still own them!
The 50 or 144 coin sets are too expensive for most collectors who have the money where they would choose it over something else.
You raise a good point - putting together a 50 coin circulated set, if one could find them would most likely run $10,000. However, about $18,000 for a MS64 set seems like a bargain. And you would have no "cheap" coins as part of your set.
And who doesn't like an Oregon with its glorious, iconic reverse for the ages! Or the quiet tranquility of the Antetiam reverse knowing what happened at that site 158 years ago. Same with the more solemn, symbolic Gettysburg. Or the Lincoln with its propensity to tone beautifully. Even the inexpensive Columbian, Stone Mountain, and Pilgrim are very nice-looking coins.
In all fairness, those that anticipated classic commems to rise in value expected that these coins, for various reasons, would have a broader following and greater interest than just numismatists. I am not sure these will ever have the appeal to the masses... there are enough of them to promote so perhaps the final chapter is yet to be written.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I'm not sure it's possible to pay $18,000 for the set you describe where it is concurrently very marketable. By "marketable", being able to get most of your money back even if prices stay flat. Outside of the most expensive such as the Lafayette dollar, Hawaii, and Pan Pac, I'm guessing that it is not. It's my inference that most collectors know this and don't like all the coins enough to lose money on it.
For $18,000 and to add variety in my collection, I'd rather buy a partial US type set even if the quality is (somewhat) lower. A coin like the 1853 A&R half is more marketable, most collectors like it a lot more than most classic commemoratives, and it's common enough where it's possible to buy nice ones in circulated grades for a comparable price.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-that Congress dollar has PERFECT toning on the obverse. What a coin!
Those are spectacular!
Classic Commems a good buy right now so much scarcer than generic dollars. Blow out generic dollars way overpriced IMO then buy classic Commems not a bad idea.
This may surprise many collectors. According to the PCGS Price Guide the estimated cost for a 50 coin type set would be:
According to CPG (directly linked to greysheet) a 50 coin type set of Classic Silver Commems is $17,000 MS64 and $25,500 MS65. MS64 per David Hall book is minimum investment grade.
I have ordered their CAC Market review which has CPG for CAC. Since all my CAC coins sold out at present this will come in handy if making any bids / offers on CAC material either on the Bay or from my table at shows (pct of CPG) in future.
CPG is a MV price based on CDN bid. I have CPG app in phone for both non CAC and CAC but like analyze the big picture (printed publication).
@koynekwest "I've said it before and I'll say it again-that Congress dollar has PERFECT toning on the obverse. What a coin!"
Practice makes perfect. EDM would be glad to make you one.
Just curious- is anyone of you a fan of the gold dollars and quarter eagles related to this set? The big $50 golds are financially not of interest to me although they are beautiful, but the smaller set is only 13 coins and pretty affordable. Some designs are pretty basic, but the two quarter eagles and the Grant and Pan PAC dollar coins are pretty nice (just my opinion).
Those are beauties. I'd love to have one. If they are AT they have me fooled. There are several similar to this one but I'm quite sure it isn't AT-
How much is the likely spread between buying and selling most of these coins? This is mostly what I was getting at in my last post.
If collectors can recover 90% in flat market, more than I believe might be interested. If it's 80% or less, a lot less compelling, especially when the buyer might not even like most of the coins that much. It's even worse on the mostly one way downward market of the last 30+ years.
I have no interest in buying these two series and never did. But I have on occasion checked the TPG population data, prices and Coin Facts. My recollection is most (and maybe all) are quite expensive for the supply, dollars more than quarter eagle.
The small sized gold commemorative set is 11 coins rather than 13 coins. I have a set and they are all very neat coins. The $2.5 Panama Pacific Exposition gold coin has a particularly nice design. Miss Liberty is shown riding on the back of a hippocampus (mythological animal that's half horse and half sea serpent) while holding a caduceus symbolizing the eradication of yellow fever.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks, I stand corrected. I currently have 8, including the two quarter eagles. I’m a big fan of the designs. My favorite is actually the pan pac dollar with the worker on the obverse
I think all of the classic commemorative is attractive, especially the Pan Pac $2.50 and, of course, the $50 pieces.
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That one is from ebay seller KPL who had a presence on ebay for a few years. Out of Sandy, Utah and all of their stuff looked similar. Forumites petitioned PCGS and got them shut down.
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Yup
The very large majority were bid up to market-top levels, regardless of whether they were even toned. In fact, large quantities traded sight-unseen.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well, they did a helluva job with AT then. I didn't pay much of a premium for my Ike so no major harm done. They must have gassed them in the original holder because mine wasn't slabbed.
I've enjoyed collecting them over the last several years. With commems, it's all about the toning (whatever you want to say about it). Here are a couple of my favorites
Glad to see your still kickin' Doug. Love that Huguenot!
There is no comparison to what has happened with run of the mill white/crusty brown early Commems and the colorfully toned ones above. Apples and oranges.
Yes, some are colorful and some are not!
I actually think it's chance more than practice. If it was practice, there would be a lot more perfect coins, which there aren't. If you find more perfect ones, let me know and I'll buy them
I used to argue NT and AT a lot, but the reality is that both are chemical reactions and surface oxidation. "Intent" isn't a scientifically sound reason to distinguish coins. If there are 4 coins that have a similar look, that's not so different from having 4 coins tone in an album. And a single toner coin is still surface oxidation, no more and no less.
Stability is important to me, however, if the color is stable and I like it, that's good enough.
It really doesn't matter to me if my Ike is AT or not. I like it and that's all that really counts.
I have been working on the 50 coin silver series of classics for years. If you get into the history of each coin, you'll learn a great deal. Obviously, they are not everyone's cup of tea but wouldn't it be a boring world if everyone liked the same thing? Someone mentioned that the coins in the series are readily available and while that is true, it is increasingly more difficult to find examples that haven't been messed with. Try to find a Lafayette dollar that hasn't been cleaned. They are out there but I wouldn't say that they are easy to find unless you have no budgetary concerns. If you haven't already, go to this webpage to start your journey: https://www.money.org/commemorative-coins
How many of the "colorful" commemoratives have had help getting their color?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Depends on what type of color you refer to. The rainbow toning is always a question. A lot of the commems have original skin because of the cardboard holders they were distributed in.
Every dog has its day.
I'm not sure, a lot have been posted here. What do you think?
Artificial toning, natural toning, and market acceptable toning have been discussed here many times in the past but I've never seen an estimate of what percentage of the commemorative with colorful (rainbow) toning have had help getting that way. Of course we'll never know an exact percentage but I would guess it's fairly high.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I know I'm gonna enjoy this Bay Bridge for a while, regardless of the future. It's been a long search for a nice dove gray XF-AU example with the waves accented by toning.
I only had two commemorative coins. Nothing special. A '1952 Washington-Carver (MS65) and a 1982-D Washington half (MS68). Got rid of them both. Actually had another now that I think about it. Either 1892 or 1893 Columbian that was raw and mid grade. No interest in commemoratives.
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