Question about CAC pricing.
Fishpro
Posts: 389 ✭✭✭
Are the CAC prices listed by them retail or wholesale?
0
Fishpro
Posts: 389 ✭✭✭
Comments
They are the prices.
They are based on greysheet data. At the bottom of a CAC pricing/pop page:
“CDN GreysheetPricing Disclaimer: CAC is an independent numismatic coin authentication service and is not connected or affiliated with any other numismatic coin encapsulating and/or grading service. Prices powered by CDN Greysheet CPG values. Click here for details.”
Are CAC prices based on “grey sheet data”, or is is the other way around?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A lot of the CAC prices are based on posted offers on the exchange. To that end, they are kind of wholesale as the exchange is dealer-to-dealer sales.
I’d say based on grey sheet data otherwise they wouldn’t need a disclaimer crediting CDN. But having some sort of bi-directional data sharing seems likely as well.
CPG lists both the non CAC and CAC Retail market values. These are based on CDN Greysheet wholesale Bid for these issues. Refer to CDN / CPG for this pricing data. The CDN CPG pricing app is free. High grade issues can command larger CAC premiums.
Example: 1911-S PCGS 64 $20 Saint CPG is $2880 non CAC and $3310 CAC. For MS 65 on this issue this is $4000 non CAC / $9750 CAC. Example Dealer A on the CAC pieces might round up (creative accounting) the 65 to $10,000 (starting point) asking price and $3350 on the 64 or would u just go w $5000 on say a really PQ 64? Description could be “Super PQ high end stunning beautiful lustrous A Coin so tough find this nice.”
Consequently having the CPG app is key in understanding pricing CAC coins. In this bull market it’s especially critical. The other angle would be working being able cherry pick A coins as these have potential breakaway 4more.
It is what it is.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Thanks for all the input!
Prices listed on CAC website are retail:
https://www.caccoin.com/pop/
I’m curious as to why @slowhand thought that merited a “LOL”. It sounded accurate and reasonable to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
He hits LOL on all my posts. It's his new hobby.
CACS is like cabbage patch beanie babies. Another few years and it will be completely irrelevant. By far the dumbest thing I've seen in my multiple decades of coin collecting. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
I agree 100%. Who, in their right mind, would care about a very low cost opinion from a top notch expert? Especially when that opinion can add liquidity and/or value.
I’d be shocked if CAC were to survive beyond its first year of operation. Oops, make that past its first decade. Oops (again) make that...
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Troll harder.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The prices on the CAC website are the same as the retail CAC prices listed on the greysheet.com price guide and are different than the wholesale CAC prices.
Those retail prices, both CAC and non-CAC, are available free to all without subscribing or signing up.
The wholesale info is what the subscriptions are for and cannot be seen without it.
.
Free retail price guide has both CAC and non-CAC listings:
https://greysheet.com/coin-prices
.
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Bottom line, the price on the CAC site matches the retail CDN Greysheet price guide (also called CPG, which I think stands for Collector Price Guide), not the wholesale price.
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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
It is sad to see how salty blitzdude is after losing his entire retirement because he put it all in beanie babies.
But wait-why stop now? We need someone to grade the person who grades the slabbing companies and so on. We just can't have too many layers of opinions with this stuff, right?
I remember in the mid 1980’s large groups of collectors and dealers said the very same thing about TPG’s NGC and PCGS.
The recent trend shows the quoted comment appears more incorrect as time goes on. Several years ago, the people that believed the quote then must have been surprised when the Greysheet started a standalone publication with CAC pricing. Then more surprise when the most respected auction houses in our industry - Heritage, Stacks, Legends, and others, started showing CAC pricing and pops for each of their CAC lots. They must have then fallen over in shock when a bit more than 1-1/2 years ago PCGS created CAC Composite Sets for the Registry! Finally, they must have fainted in disbelief this past May when NGC started adding extra Registry points to any coin with a CAC! The trend is clear, and is widely supported.
To those that wear blinders, be my guest. People in the Flat Earth Society also have difficulty in recognizing solid, long-term trends.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This is 100% true!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Exactly! Why pay for one when you can pay two. Are you suggesting that the first expert is not an expert? Why not just bypass the TPGs and go straight to the CACS. They could give you a pretty little rainbow holder and everything. LOL collectors are a strange bunch.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
I'm sorry your coins did not sticker....
I agree 100%. Who, in their right mind, would care about a very low cost opinion from a top notch expert?
I guess from the specific quote being used from Mark Feld, sarcasm too is not recognized, even if it’s right in front of you. Thanks for making my point!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Why don't CAC start their own grading service? That would save collectors and dealers from having to send their coins out to two different places.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In all seriousness, because apparently, they have no desire to do so. They have a business model that works for them, as well as for many collectors and dealers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Now there's a thought. You sir win the forum award for common sense. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
They'd have to charge $300 or more submission fees to keep all of the ms64 riff raff Morgans out. Or a minimum value of $5000 per coin.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
OK, I see @blitzdude taking his lumps here but isn't there a layer of truth in the idea CAC is unnecessary? If your coin comes back MS64 and you genuinely feel it's grade is incorrect and should be MS65, send it back for regrade or cross-over to another TPG. If it comes back as MS64 I would assume it would not have stickered anyway...
I understand CAC is widely recognized and will probably not be going any place any time soon. Their stickers ARE now pretty well ingrained into the hobby.
That being said, I kind of feel all the emphasis on stickers muddies the real pricing on graded coins. Would one really want an MS64 CAC coin over one that gets regraded at MS65 if it genuinely deserves the higher grade?
Mark
Mark dak Why slab any coin Just everyone learn to grade and agree on the grade. Tpg is one of the best things to happen to coin collecting 🤓it’s the reason I returned to collecting. Too many opinions but most agree with tpg
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Has the Beanie Baby market crashed?
I think part of the appeal is not related to the grade per se but also a statement of the coins surfaces and other attributes. The grade accounts for some of those things but falls short of describing all the attributes of the coin. The CAC sticker is a shortcut that tells you several things beyond the ABC of a coin’s grade.
Of course we have deviated a great deal from the OP’s query. So I’ll refrain from adding anything else unless it relates to the OP.
Like it or not, CAC is here to stay.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Gotta have something to bicker about!
I wish the service provided educational feedback on why a coin was rejected. Yes, I know one can ask, but from an operational efficiency standpoint, providing it routinely would serve an educational mission. They do keep records of this information (I think). The potential liability concerns could be overcome with terms of service language.
I respect that this is not in their business model but it would be great for the hobby.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@TurtleCat - I don’t know why my quote of you included that last sentence of yours! Bizarre.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Lol, the forum software likes to keep life interesting…
@blitzdude Why don't you start your own grading service?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to buy a roll of stickers and then second guess the grades assigned by the real grading services?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I get what you are saying. CAC is not necessary. I am still trying to identify who is being forced to use CAC. The standard response is that you won’t get as strong a price if a coin is not stickered. But, then, getting the best price when selling isn’t required (read necessary), just wise.
What mystifies me is just why CAC lives torturously rent free 24/7/365 in the minds of those who think it worthless? I mean, I laugh every time some place tries to sell me an extended warranty on something, as I feel those offers are worthless money grabs, but I don’t ruminate on the topic to no end. Especially to the point of damaging my enjoyment of a favored hobby.
Ok. Go ahead and start a business and do that.
A seller who wants to receive top dollar for many classes of coins is indeed forced to use CAC. Sellers who don't fall into that category are the exception. So I don't see a lot of merit in your argument.
The extended warranty analogy is also misplaced, as the existence of same is actually beneficial to those who routinely decline them, because they have the effect of covering some of a store's overhead and keeping baseline prices lower.
As to "living rent free" in people's heads, I can assure you that I never think about CAC except when it gets brought up on the forum. I suspect that's true for a lot of people. And for the record, I don't think CAC is worthless, although I was happier overall as a collector before its existence.
On coins where there’s a LARGE leap in price between say 64 and 65 — having the bean on your 65 helps a lot.
Just curious ......Do many collectors still hold coins that have never been to a grading service much less CAC?
I think you meant "having the bean on your 64 helps a lot."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The extended warranty analogy fits perfectly. You admit it yourself. The existence of a CAC sticker gives buyer and seller benefit by bringing strong buy money and reducing buyer ‘overhead’ lost buying coins that were less strong for the grade. If the sticker makes me more when I sell have I not benefited at the expense of all those selling non stickered coins of the same type for less? I have. That extra money up for grabs goes to me, no?
Because you used the term ‘also’ it is clear that you didn’t read my post carefully about CAC being necessary. There is no dispute that having CAC increases what you might get out of a coin. It is not necessary OR required for a seller to have a coin graded, or to use PCGS or NGC as opposed to ANACS or ICG to have the coins graded, or to sell them through a well known auction house like HA or Legend, or Stacks as opposed to consigning them to Jimmy Joe Bob to sell at his stall at the local flea market. And it is not necessary to have a CAC sticker. Necessary and advisable are two different things.
These are not requirements or necessities. These are intelligent choices to maximize potential sale prices. Choose incorrectly at any juncture and you may cost yourself money. You state that CAC isn’t living rent free in your head. Great. Maybe you can help blitzdude.
I have plenty of coins that I purchased raw, mostly large cents, and remain raw. I also have coins that I removed from PCGS or NGC slabs and are currently raw.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
@jkrk there are still a ton of coins that have never seen a TPG or CAC. The entirety of my collection purchased pre-COVID has likely never been to either (except of course for my slabbed ones, but I doubt they were ever at CAC). There are a lot of collectors like me who have never submitted anything and still buy raw (at least in person).
There probably aren’t a ton of expensive coins that are still out there completely raw. Some, certainly.
Most collectors play in the sub-$300 category. The upside for grading/stickers is a lot lower, as is the downside.
JA stated in an interview that he had seen a high percentage of coins I believe over a certain value. I want to say it was higher than 80%. So my hunch is for coins worth more than $5000 he has seen a very large %.
I just listened to the interview (put in john albanese cac on utube) the intv was 3 years ago and JA said he has seen 80-90% of "better coins". Also, anyone would be well served to listen to the interview. He states which coins CAC should make a difference and which coins it shouldnt. He is a straight shooter.
I read that same interview. It was in one of the very first issues of that quarterly publication that publishes retail CAC values. My recollection is he implied that a LOT of the coins being submitted they’ve previously seen, whether from just resubmission, or the same coins coming back with different cert numbers, from regrades at the TPG’s, or crack outs. He said he believes he’s seen about 90% of the actual coins he’s going to see, and then implied that since the main core/profit center of their business is wholesaling CAC coins, he wonders if in a few years they’ll stop stickering. Doing the evaluations and then stickering does not provide them anywhere near the majority of their profits.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996