1933 Saint Gaudens slabbed MS65
Steve27
Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
While I know gold is a very soft metal, so it's prone to bag marks, I was still surprised to see it get an MS65 grade. I saw it when it was on display at the New York Federal Reserve Bank, and it looked very baggy to me. Did anyone else see it?
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
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I haven’t seen it but from what I understand the examples that left the mint (one way or another) were done very soon after they were minted. So it’s more likely to be a better example than one sitting in a bag for years/decades.
I haven’t seen the legal ‘33 in person but I imagine the eye appeal plus its place in history is sufficient for a 65 grade. Not that the grade really matters, of course. Unless/until/if the government goes back on their agreement and lets the other examples out it’s the only one.
IIRC, back when Fenton won his case the then-President of PCGS offered to grade it MS-65 even though they had never seen it in hand. Perhaps they are just honoring that offer.
I have only seen the pictures.... It looks 64/65... but we all know about coin pictures. I would hope the grade is not compromised by the rarity, but would have to see it in hand to make such a judgement. Cheers, RickO
@ricko - The grade IS compromised by the rarity.
I've seen it and the Smithsonian coins in-hand. It's conceivable that some would overvalue the lustre, as al the 29-33 issues have frost richer and more "swirling" than previous dates. They have richer deeper frost than ANY other dates. They have traditionally been graded with compensating (ungodly) eye appeal . I've never discussed this coin with JA nor will I ever need to. He will pay what he chooses to value as "MS65 money" for the Farouk coin. He knows he's paying "Farouk money".
I have discussed another coin with him for which there are strong parallels. The Eliasberg 1876-CC $5 PCGS MS66 CAC is a technical 65 per JA and most other technically-oriented graders. JA and CAC had once had two bids for the same unique coin. one for 65 and one for 66. They were $1000 apart and the coin is unique above MS61 (sic?). CAC never expects,, based on historical records, to see another. That instance is sort of like an inside joke for a lot of pros.
The planet does not expect to see another '33. The Langbord coins are sequestered. The Browning coin is hidden. The "West Coast" coin the Secret Service already knows about and has let sit with its owner will become "illegal" as soon as it hits the "street" or a grading service; private "private treaty" will remain de facto kosher. Thrown out this urban legend, but a very low-key but knowledgeable and powerful older-timer than I, mentored by Izzy Switt himself, says there are more. @Julian can PM me for more gossip. Pre-internet, you folks haven't had the opportunity for even a clue to a guess.
There are several Langbord coins that exceed the Farouk coin in surface quality. They occupy a different reality. It seems. For now.
Even allowing for monster eye-appeal, I grade the Farouk coin 64/65. The most critical damage is in the primary focal point at the knee. I also in-hand grade the Childs 1804 as PR66.
So what? Eye-balls usually rule, but a specific history may overwhelm it.
The coins are "sufficiently sui generis" that they can be graded as ranked! by convention or condition census.
I do not like the '33 Saint as a 65 Saint. If it were downgraded to a 64 and stickered green my valuation would be the same.
Offered to me privately, I'm on the phone to Greg Rohan at Heritage saying "I've got ten minutes to commit to buying this piece at $15 million. You put up the money and I'm a happy camper at a 1% finders fee". Remember that I'm a numismatic slut and market whore. Like Harry Chapin in "Taxi Driver", "I'd stuff the bill in my shirt". Neither Yahweh or Lucifer will hassle me about the divot on the knee.
Reading your narratives and colorful commentary here on these threads, is like a good glass of wine for me.
I like an occasional Santa Margherita pinot grigio, but that particular post was authored with a hearty tasting of State of New Jersey licensed East Coast Sour Diesel.
I was straight when I looked at the coins.
The West Coast Sour Diesel is pretty darn good too ........
@ColonelJessup ... Thank you for the information. And based on your intimations regarding more '33 Saints, I wonder if you also may know where a '64D Peace dollar may be hiding?
Cheers, RickO
@Fred...
How poetic it would be for you to inform your daughter that you were "burning one" decades before Burning Man. Or has she already stuck her head in the closet where you kept the old Fillmore posters and sniffed the evidence?
She actually met her (new) husband a few years ago at Burning Man -
And the closet is empty - Heritage has my 220 Rock Poster collection
for a future auction............
Let's chat at the ANA in two weeks......
I was hoping they would do a PCGS-produced Trueview of the coin. However, the photo in the cert lookup appears to be the same as the Sotheby's auction photo which made the coin look like a Matte Proof.
I know of none right now, but I'm feverishly not working on it.
I did not give “Rarity Points” while at ANACS, but I may have been the last Grader anywhere not to do so.
Do you mean you were offered to buy this privately at $15m before the Sotheby's auction? Was this recent?
Follow me on MyCollect!
I should have said "If it were offered to me privately today, I'm on the phone with Greg Rohan at Heritage". It's my second-hand understanding that Greg was bidding at the auction to a higher amount than that "all-in".
I could also have said "More than a few people here would know well enough to call Greg Rohan".
I also have quite a few other semi-hilarious quasi-insider "jokes" I can mangle by over-explaining them.
Helluva Welcome to the Forum
My prose style has recently been clarified here as being "mystifying"
Here's a picture of this one. IDK if this is "The One", or from the Langbord Hoard.
“The One” is in a PCGS MS65 holder. The MS66 you posted is from the Langbord group.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the NGC MS66 were offered to me privately today for $15M, I'd pay $1000 to sleep with it under my pillow and return it to the Secret Service agent sleeping outside my door in the morning.
You wouldn’t return it to the (other) Secret Service agent sleeping inside your door? 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'd be looking for a security company to transport it to cac for the much coveted green bean by a fully insured courier.
I immediately considered this sort of scenario. Maybe the coin's owner will send his private helicopter to pick up JA and have him personally land on Sotheby's roof in New York City to inspect the coin and affix the sticker to the slab. Or maybe CAC could send them a raw bean in a plain white envelope for 55c and invite the owner to do it himself.
I've never slept in the same room with a Secret Service agent. But I do have an amusing story about an interlude with a US Marshal in the trunk of an armored Lincoln Town Car the second time I entered Witness Protection.
edited to add: I think they're considering George Clooney to play me in the movie,
How soon before the coin is listed for sale on eBay?
Here's the TV.
Sorreeeee! A 9 year old can give us a better taste of that lustre with an iPhone 7.
With the matte effect unnaturally predominating, the marks on the knee, thigh and upper shin, while deep, seem less distracting because of a lesser differential in tone between the virgin satin texture of unmarred frost and the optic blackboard screech of raw scraped metal.
Look at @JazzmanJAB's image of the 66. It's overlit, but all the 33's have that swirling skin! The new owner is hereby advised to fly in his own Forum-recommended photographer for the glamour shot that's going to hang in his meditation room and his office.
That is not a TrueView. That is the Sotheby's auction image which apparently PCGS agreed to use in the cert database.
I thought it was his Aunt, Rosemary!
No biggie to me whatsoever, but it says "PCGS TrueView" on it.
I believe that he is saying that PCGS agreed to take Sotheby’s image and place their name on it.
I understand. Still no biggie to me at all. I had just noted that everyone was talking about the grade and condition of the coin but up until I did, no one else had posted a picture of it. You know, the "This thread is worthless without pictures" thing.
This is the actual TrueView.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Can't those annoying scrapes and the gouge on Liberty's knee be smoothed off?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I see why they like the other picture.
I don’t think they would like the other picture more than their own. I certainly don’t, it looks flat and dull. The other picture was just taken first by the auction house, and would probably be replaced if they were notified that it is still appears on the cert page.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I was thinking Bruce Dern, Anthony Hopkins or Perkins.
Indubitably Dern
Looks like someone stepped on it & did a pirouette.
It's still a 33 but anyone here can buy a saint in nicer condition.
That's what I tell myself.
If I had it, the 1st thing I'd do is crack it & burnish her knee w/ a tiny spoon.
My Saint Set
Yes, the old photo was just cached in the system. It’s been fixed now.
Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232
There's also Nicholson, but he is fully booked.