First Dollar Struck at the Mint
Zoins
Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
1794 No Stars Flowing Hair Dollar - Copper - Judd-18 Pattern - PCGS VF25 POP 0/1/0
The Judd-18 1794 US Dollar in copper was mentioned by @WinLoseWin in TDN's thread so I looked it up.
Heritage says this is the "First Dollar Struck at the Mint" which is very cool!
- Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/40273672
- CoinFacts: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1794-1-j-18-bn/11049/25
- Sale: https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1794-dt-1-dollar-judd-18-pollock-27-unique-vf25-pcgs-pcgs-11049-/a/1329-4190.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
@BestGerman wrote:
Judd thought the obverse of this trial piece was an uncompleted version of the die used to strike 1794 Silver Dollars for circulation. However, Pollock claims to have made side-by-side comparisons between this piece and several 1794 Silver Dollar circulation strikes; he found enough differences to conclude that the obverses were different dies. The U.S. Patterns website (www.uspatterns.com) notes: "It is a different obverse die with minute differences in date placement, neck length, hair treatment and others.The reverse of this piece also appears on 1794 Silver Dollars struck for circulation (1794 Bolender 1).
Compare with the unique 1794 "With Stars" One Dollar Die Trial in Copper (Judd 19) that used both dies from the circulation strikes.
It's currently in a private registry set. Is the owner otherwise public?
Here's a select Provenance:
- John White Haseltine
- Lorin Gilbert Parmelee
- George D. Woodside
- William Hartman Woodin
- Waldo Newcomer
- Frederick Charles Cogswell Boyd
- Abe Kosoff
- Bob Simpson
Comments
I’d call it a pattern of a dollar
Is this the first piece of any kind with a dollar denomination struck by the US Mint?
It’s not a true dollar. It is not of correct weight or metal content to be a dollar
Martin
It’s a prototype, an important one but not production ready. Cool coin though
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
If this is the Benson coin, it was bought in that sale by Martin Paul.
What a unique and historical coin.... Would be an honor to hold it in hand. Cheers, RickO
If???
And I thought I was overly cautious.........
@tradedollarnut
Sorry about not looking at the link for a provenance. Mega-yawn. Was there, did that while you were still on your paper route.
Jealous that neither you nor your partner knew very much then, rookie?
I was sitting next to the buyer. Many of us did 25-30 major auctions every year. Some coins I can recall. Venues? Not so much
And you're welcome for the additional provenance. Your chronic information-deficiency just continues to impress.
You can read them. I make them.
Oh, and remember the provenance on that '95 $10 in 64+ of yours that's so special.?
You don't have to thank me for my personal ownership, but the Norman Stack Type Set is likely worthy of mention.
Deliver my Valentine in Macy's window.
Don’t get your panties in a bunch - your verbal hedging just struck me as amusing since there’s only one of them….we all know your coin knowledge is only surpassed by your mystifying use of the English language.
I noted the OP didn't include Benson. I knew the coin instantly. Why look it up? I forgot you aren't acquainted with Jack. I obviously recognized the coin and who bought it. Bottom of the page;. quickie mention, gone.....
Not prolix, not obscure. (look up prolix).
Which phrase mystified you?
. Your greater-NYC area partner can explain that one 
Provenance?
Chronic information-deficiency? or
Deliver my Valentine in Macy's window?
There's math for dummies and English for engineers and never the twain etc.
the word "if" when there is only a single piece available to collectors.
Can’t we all just get along?
Oh man where’s that old deer eating popcorn gif when you need it?
Not "the single piece available to collectors". The only piece in existence..
Are you merging the starred Smithsonian piece with this one? It's unique also. And unavailable. Thus your confusion?
The word "if" since there was at least one undocumented sales for that unique piece. Benson was NOT noted by the OP in his main text. I don't remember it selling in an intervening sale, but wanted to qualify my statement.
You could be right. Maybe I mixed it up with the starred coin in the Smithsonian too.
.
yes, I merged them.
No mention of the corrosion and still straight graded. Huh.
Heritage calls it corroded (emphasis mine):
Go find another
Doesn't matter. Be consistent.
Then point that finger at yourself and reflect on how you advanced knowledge here.
Since you don't have the stones to say "I wanted to bust your chops but failed because I am mentally or psychologically deficient in some way I don't want to go into", I won't say it for you
I'm not here to argue with chatroom chimps or multi-millionaire pissant semi-ignoramuses for whom a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Spend almost a million bucks on a '95 $10 has no interest in it being provenanced to anyone but himself. Didn't check or research the coin. Norman 'effing Stack. He's not spinning in his grave; he's laughing
I wonder what Darwin thought about devolution?
Cool. First Parrino and now you. I’ve been called pissant by the best of the best. Pffft
Says one who thinks he has no match let alone any betters. The bad news for numismatics is that, with a huge amount less narcissism, you could have been a great asset in advancing knowledge. Knowledge other than that you are the incomparable you. Do you know how many pros laughed when you displayed "the most deeply prooflike coin struck in the 18th Century?". Pffft.. indeed. Stick with your fanboys.
Wtf is wrong with you? Who pissed in your Cheerios the past few months? It’s not my job to advance numismatic knowledge- you’re right - I don’t care.
As far as the provenance of a certain 1795$10, I’m sorry I didn’t genuflect properly for a coin that I no longer own. Gmafb.
As far as the most deeply prooflike coin display - I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Before the lock, may as well say the fanboy thing was hurtful
Fun thread. A little sad I am not a pissant though. My bank account isn't large enough to meet the criteria unfortunately
If you don't care about advancing numismatics knowledge, I will cynically consider any statement made here or coin shown here is for the primary purpose of personal preening.,
ROFLMAO you hypocrite. When the norman stack 1795 $10 pcgs ms64+ was in your "box of three" and you were trolling for our deserved adoration of the MORELAN coin, you must have mistaken that response for adoring you. Not caring about advancing numismatic knowledge? Part of your mission statement? (Lessened and increased emphasis mine.)
Hell's bells; if you genuflected to the Pope, he would recognize it as patronizing.
Remember the joke about the guy who when to Heaven, entered the Great Hall, and saw three guys on thrones?
"Who are these guys?"
"That's Moses on the left and Jesus on the right."
"Who's the guy in the middle?"
"That's God."
turning....
"YOU'RE IN MY SEAT"
I don't have time to go back and note all the threads you initiated where you crowed about a coin and then stopped dead in your tracks when confronted with the fact that your ego had over-reached your knowledge. These are your threads and your self-proclaimed jewels. IIRC the coin was a '95 h10c that was N67, cracked, micro-dipped skillfully in the center obverse and then went PCGS 66+ CAC. NON-PL. Thread title something like "The Most Deeply PL Coin Struck in the 18th Century"
You self-selected by inviting yourself into the middle of a pissing contest disagreement and didn't expect to be collateral damage? They won't lock the thread because of your personally-experienced drama. Your avatar shows a victim and you've obviously suited up for the game. I'm just your sadist du jour. If you're not ashamed to admit you're a fanboy, if you're proud and happy to reside in the Marvel Comics Universe, rock on.
Regarding provenance, I will say that @tradedollarnut has said that he'll always think of the 1794 Specimen Silver Dollar as the Amon Carter coin.
When thinking of living owners for that coin, I like to think of it as the Cardinal-Morelan coin.
When thinking of past owners for that coin, I like to think of it as the Virgil Brand coin. Of course, in good Virgil Brand tradition, he had the specimen dollar and a business strike dollar, so it's not specific enough to just say the Virgil Brand 1794 dollar.
Go get started on your daily lid…
Three Tylenol and an enema will relieve the headache from your recto-cranial infarction.....
It's called "playing the dozens" and you're rolling "snake-eyes".
I believe this all began because the estimable (but ungracious) collector decided to take a dump on "if" while ignoring the fact that I offered up heretofore unavailable knowledge. I was too lax to write "I recall that piece as the Benson coin and, if so, the buyer was the acclaimed Martin Paul. Mostly I remember sitting next to him in silent awe as he bought. I'm not as sure of where that was as the coin itself, which was more important to me.".
Knew a Jesuit priest who refused a promotion to Monsignor. Said, with true humility, "the higher you go up the ladder, the easier it is for everyone to see your @ss".
All that knowledge and yet you still end up broke, bitter and incoherent. Bummer
You crack me up
. How many millions of dollars of my money went up in smoke when oil was smarter than you were a couple of years ago? Not that you have any idea what I'm talking about. You win if we play coin UNO. Kevin told me your betting strategies from his poker tournaments. Coin Jeopardy? I was on the TV show five times. If you are unable to understand me, once again, I suggest "English for Engineers and Dummies." I've been published often enough in "The Numismatist" to feel comfortable enough with my intelligibility. What you mistake for general bitterness is personalized contempt. Heightened, in fact, because, as my first ex-wife said, "I thought you really had a lot of potential". With your money, you could have been another Gene Gardner instead of just another big-game trophy hunter.
I am totally broken up over your disappointment. I may enter a monastery to get my spiritual will to live refreshed.
And…from what I observe, most of your money goes up in smoke as well…
Here's a spiritual revelation:
The guy with the bumper sticker that says "The Guy with the Most Toys Wins" is likely afraid he's "The Biggest Loser".
cough... cough... Well-played, sir. Well-played.
I really dislike the personal attacks Col Jessop. Let's talk coins. Insulting others this harshly is not what I want to read on these blogs. You made your point about a missing provenance here or there, let's move on.
How do I block a thread so I can’t see it anymore?
Close your eyes.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
good feature to add
You don't want to see the unique first dollar struck by the US Mint?
Here it is again! Nice to see some coins!
that's not a dollar's worth of undesired-by-all-copper.
can't be the first dollar... (meant to compete in commerce with many 1794 silver dollars?)
It comes down to how one defines first dollar. People have different definitions.
at what point do we get angry?
1) From what little I know of your holdings, you likely have the same classicist bent as TDN and I.
2) You likely know quite a few dealers I know well.
3) You might have even met me a few times.
Here's why I both care and don't care about your dislike of my "personal attacks". I'm pretty scrupulous about not drawing "First Blood". I'd imagine you think my responses asymmetrically harsh.
The guys who have stood up for me in the coin business have never done it simply because we could make each other money. My word is my bond and I'd rather lose money than break it. And like many, my pocket is lighter. You may think I talk a lot, think overly highly of myself, have a caustic impatience with ignorance and stupidity, and be right 51% or more of the time.
If you want to talk coins, sir, I've talked about coins.
Forget about my ill-mannered approach. if you can, and consider what I choose not to consider as simple disingenuousness on the the part of the object of my contumely and contempt.
I have referenced two very specific times when TDN started a thread about an exceptional purchase.
1795 H10c PCGS MS66+ CAC headlined "Most deeply prooflike US coin struck in the 18th Century"
1795 $10 PCGS MS64+ CAC. don't remember his thread title.
In the first instance, through his own ignorance, I disproved his self-aggrandizing statement by naming a very famous coin that shut him up so severely that he couldn't say. "Damn, I feel like a fool. Can you excuse my enthusiasm? I screwed up my due diligence. This is a headlight for a coin this old and tiny. Maybe it's brighter than this writer in choosing his words". He'd have all of us, me included, eating out of the palm of his hand. Instead, he ran. He now says.
Res ipsa loquitor
In the second instance, after some initial confusion, I recognized the coin as one I had bought directly from Eric Streiner's Norman Stack Type Set deal. Semi-surprised that he didn't know the pedigree, I, as the former owner of this coin, as well as (I self-aggrandizingly mention) the Eliasberg '95 $10 (now PCGS MS65 non-CAC) at much the same time, thought as one connoisseur he would appreciate knowing his coin's provenance cum pedigree. While that coin was once in "the box of three", he currently refers to it by noting he
Res ipsa loquitor
choosing to ignore or discount info I gave him. Not my info. Good verifiable info. But not useful to someone who now states his modus operandi is
Res ipsa loquitor
The point I was making had nothing whatsoever to do with a missing provenance. I'll excuse Tom D's jab because he's Tom D. and it wasn't a jab but a drollity. But, by our fair-haired boy, "If????" so archly punctuated translates in my book to "This is blatantly obvious. You must be an ignoramus to not know it". I don't like this said about me by someone who makes statements so provably ignorant.
Long standing bad blood between us born of many battles from which he's turned and run, knowing he was wrong and not being man enough to admit it. A lack of veracity about his own statements, easily verifiable from Forum archives (which I have no idea how to access). My delight at exposing his dishonesty disingenuousness about what he knows, purports to know and doesn't know is surely palpable. And I'm not saying he doesn't know a lot. BUT.....
So @GoBust, why did I respond further?
Many of what you might characterize as insults I consider ugly truths. And none the less true if expressed in an ugly way to someone I have come to view as in some ways an untrustworthy and unreliable source of numismatic information. I really don't care much if you like me or my methods. I'll be long dead and my facts will still be impeccable. If I've established some doubts about both myself and my co-contentious colleague and a few people do a bit more research from doubting or believing and learn a bit more, I'll be content. The flat-out down-low is that I'm not addressing anyone posting on this thread. You are the least part of any audience on this Forum.
A few of you might waste you time asking your favorite national dealer about me. You can put their worst characterization on my tombstone.
"Occasionally lacked tact. A little in love with the sound of his own voice. You could bet on his integrity and take what he said to the bank".
Throw in some BongoBongo stuff and this will be one of the greatest threads ever.
Dude - get over yourself. I have never been antagonistic towards you other than making fun of your confusing posts - which is compounded by you editing them 4 times after a response. The worse I have done to you is not recognize your addition to a provenance for a coin I was sad to be selling. It hurt to sell my coins as a result of the pandemic and I wasn’t in the mood to commiserate. My bad
You cannot be dense enough to think this is about me wanting recognition for my ownership link in the Norman Stack provenance chain. My model would be Andy's being OK with you calling the SP66 the Carter coin without his name attached to it. As I've occasional said, "my 1804 $1, formerly known as the Garrett piece". I informed you directly of my lack of want for credit in my PM to you. I didn't want or need credit for even identifying my linkage with the act of connecting two more salient links.
This specific point is very clearly about your cavalier treatment in neglecting and thus effectively suppressing the classic and, to the most highly-knowledgeable numismatists, one of the most estimable of provenance and pedigree chains. "From the cabinet of Norman Stack" rates with, among many illustrious others, "from the cabinet of the Lord St. Oswald" in terms of cachet.
You may be dense enough to believe your disingenuousness is undetectable.
Res ipsa loquitor
You have the advantage of me in this dispute. I am older than you and you live two time zones later than I.
".... and bands of angels bear thee to thy rest"
Wow. How do I save this. so many jabs I need to remember. Anyway in before the poof
Martin