Need help identifying the name of this error and it’s rarity
JP8980
Posts: 3 ✭
After weeks of research and scrolling through what seems like thousands of pages looking at coins of all varying levels of error, I still have not found another quite like this one. I have a 2012 D El Yunque that from what I can see appears that the LI is a double dyed L, there appears to be a ring of sorts around Washington’s head, and from what I’ve gathered, the reverse has been broadstruck? It looks like this: I have not been able to find any 2012 quarters with quite as much error, let alone any really, and was hoping someone may be able to tell me if this is legit, and if I really have a one of a kind or not?
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looks like post mint damage, maybe the coin was stuck in a dryer or something like that.
The reason you can find any info for your coin is that its just a damaged coin not an error.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Welcome to the forum!
Just a damaged quarter.
It's a damaged coin - the edges have been 'beveled' -
It didn't leave the Mint like that - not an error coin of
any kind, we're sorry to say.
It may be the result of the paper roll crimping machine.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
These types of coins come out of modern washing machines. I have personally seen our washing machine produce the exact same results.
There are hundreds of these every week on Ebay, all are damaged and not error coins.
Zero extra value.
there is no doubling of any type on the L
the circular marks around Washington coupled with that circular part on the reverse is indicative of a heavy wear down while spinning in or on something. that's not broadstruck, it's heavily damaged.
Just out of curiosity, why do so many comment the same thing when you can clearly see the first comment says everything the next several say? And secondly, if it was caused by a washing machine as most of you claim, why am I unable to find any pictures of other coins with any kind of similar “ after mint damages” like you all claim is the case here with this piece? That beveled edge wasn’t caused by grinding or rolling over something else for an elongated period of time either, I mean, I’m no coin expert, but wouldn’t an edge like that caused by grinding or even rolling produce some kind of horizontal striations in the flow of the wear instead of the vertical ones there are suggesting that the metal was pushed or even pressed that way? And so evenly nonetheless?
And you’re right @Ms.Morrisine, there is no doubling on the “L” itself, I was merely saying that the “I” looked to me like a completely whole other attempt at being stamped as an “L” due to the lower left hand corner of the “B” having that section separated and if you zoom in close enough on the picture, the bottom of the “I” begins to slightly taper outward.
there are some arcs on the beveled edge. for example, above "yunque"
I'd guess radial effects are from varying hardness from metal flow outward. I could be wrong. However, the edge has reeding all the way around. a coin that is struck with the ability to move metal outside a collar, would not have a beveled edge.
What is going on with the "IB" is from damage caused by whatever left those circular marks.
as for the multiple comments. we have a tendency to want to participate.
PMD R1
"Just out of curiosity, why do so many comment the same thing when you can clearly see the first comment says everything the next several say?"
Because if only 1 person responded there is a very good chance you would question what they are saying.
Even after soo many of the same comments you are still questioning.
"That beveled edge wasn’t caused by grinding or rolling over something else"
Sorry, that is not correct. Nothing in the minting process would produce that effect.
Maybe one day I'll learn
Fred- you will never learn😉
Isn't it possible that the coin fell into a washing machine DURING the minting process. My sources tell me that there in fact are washing machines located in the Denver mint.
Well, if multiple people--including one of the foremost experts on errors--tell you the exact same thing and you don't believe them, what is the likelihood that you'd believe just one person if everyone else didn't reply at all because someone already came in with the answer?
Question for you: why post a question here if, no matter how many people--including one of the foremost experts on errors--tell you the answer, you're still going to question them? Is no one qualified once they tell you you don't have a valuable coin? There must have been some reason to post the question here, but apparently it's not because you have access to decades of experience willing to answer your question honestly.
Just to throw this out there. Reverse damage from a bezel and obverse is from being glued into said bezel?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
that ugly thing in a bezel as jewelry?
For the original poster @JP8980
You said “ And secondly, if it was caused by a washing machine as most of you claim, why am I unable to find any pictures of other coins with any kind of similar “ after mint damages” like you all claim is the case here with this piece? ”
Here you go 🌞
Mr_Spud
Oh, Oh, Oh, I know... It was a ballerina. She said here hold my beer and watch this, I'm going to spin on a quarter.
simple and blunt your coin is PMD nothing more, nothing less
1997-present
Could be a key chain
OP's coin could not have been produced at the mint. That is clear based on an understanding of the minting process and how the forces in play impact the blank planchet as it is struck.
Mine is not as neatly bevelled.(sorry for the bad picture) but it suffered a similar abuse.
@JP8980 .... Welcome aboard.... You have the answer above....and once by a highly recognized, and published, error expert, @FredWeinberg . We often offer supporting comments/agreement, especially since new collectors are frequently unwilling to accept just one answer.... And in your case, several. Your coin is Post Mint Damaged. Cheers, RickO
First of all, what I’m seeing is that the “foremost expert” in identifying mint errors is never wrong, not even by chance at times? Which I find odd cause I do believe that both Neill Degrasse Tyson, the foremost expert in Astrophysics and understanding the universe and everything in it and Stephen Hawking, the foremost expert in theoretical physics both claimed that “the more you know about something specific, the less you actually know about it in its entirety.”
@FredWeinberg, I apologize for not taking you at your word, but not because I felt like I just brushed it off. I’ve been collecting for almost 25 years and not once ever, have I come across your name in any of my research. I’m absolutely 100% sure I would remember if I had, simply because my IQ of 162 allots me that ability. That being said, while others may take your word as undeniable truth, I will question you, not out of disrespect or disbelief, but to challenge you to explain your thoughts in greater detail so that I may gain a better understanding of how you came to said conclusion, based on the information you have been given, how you processed this information based on the variables to consider, and lastly why it is believed that your conclusion is in fact the only plausible answer to the question being posed.
Secondly, if only one person had responded, it wouldn’t have seemed so overwhelmingly negative, therefore it probably would’ve warranted less of a response, especially if it were to come only from professionals and not just every nickel and dimer that trolls the web looking to leave their 2 cents on the back end of a professional response, cause even though after all of you sent your responses, I’m still questioning it.
This quarter looks nothing like any of those “washing machine coins” in the pictures above. The first and most obvious reason for that is because of the wear patterns. The beveling on the reverse shows no other circular wearing in the middle of the coin like the examples given above, in fact, the obverse side of the coin, where no beveling has taken place along the edges of the coin, is the only place there seems to be any circular wear in the center of the coin around the bust of Washington. Also, judging by the amount of double dying in the motto “IN GOD WE TRUST,” as well as the uniformity of the edges of the rings created in the wear pattern on the obverse, that would suggest that possibly a smaller coin, such as a nickel and/or then a penny, were possibly stamped against the blank quarter planchette before the quarter had even been struck. I can’t be the only one that sees the secondary lip split, bottom lip, and chin impression on the neck of Washington just under where his ponytail begins either, did anyone else spot that? Or has no one actually taken the time to really look at the coin?
Do these fine details fly over heads because y’all have looked at so many coins with the assumption that because of it’s “at a glance appearance” being similar to that of something undesirable that it could only be that and nothing else?
Most of y’all I’m sure use a loupe to look at your coins close up, but I’ve got an LED lit microscope and the ability to magnify from 40x-1000x on a 46” 4K TV screen, yet I still took these pictures with an iPhone 7S and can see all of those unique features just spending a few extra minutes really looking at it.
If Neil Degrasse Tyson or Stephen Hawking (when he was alive) said that the sun is yellow, I would believe them. That belief has nothing to do with them being experts. The facts stand on their own. If I refuse to agree that the sun is yellow, the only person in the wrong is me.
Your coin has been damaged after it left the mint. No amount of insults will change that.
Wow, somebody has gotten their toes stepped on!
I am positive that OP’s coin was produced at the mint and I will bet any amount of money that it was.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
@JP8980 Send it in for grading and come back and post the results and prove everybody wrong.
@FredWeinberg worked for PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service) for quite some time as their error authenticator before his retirement a few months ago. PCGS quite literally bet millions of dollars on Fred's word, so I have no reason to doubt him. Not many companies would bet millions in one person without them being right pretty much every time.
In this case, if you have been collecting for 25 years, you should know exactly how this coin was produced at the mint. I'd love to hear your explanation of how this look could occur during the normal minting process.
Until you can explain that, I'll stick to the facts - your coin is a washing machine coin.
Coin Photographer.
@JP8980
"I’ve been collecting for almost 25 years and not once ever, have I come across your name in any of my research."
"because my IQ of 162 allots me that ability."
"judging by the amount of double dying"
"were possibly stamped against the blank quarter planchette"
Wow! That high IQ and 25 years of collecting and you still don't know the difference between dye & die or how to spell planchet. Impressive for sure!
@JP8980
All errors have to occur during the minting process. Please use your 25 years of collecting experience and 162 IQ to explain how that error could occur during the minting process. The rest of us "nickel and dimer" members will be eagerly awaiting your numismatic wisdom
You obviously don't realize that many of those "nickel and dimer" members who responded to you include some of the top dealers in the country. Other members are published numismatic authors, numismatic researchers, work for major auction houses, have some of the top collections in the world as shown on the registry sets, and have significantly more than 25 years of collecting experience (I started in 1970). You would think someone with a 162 IQ would have at least taken the time to learn about the members via their posts before insulting them as "nickel and dimers"
You are correct about one thing. Dr. Tyson deGraff was correct about the the Dunning-Kruger Effect (that's the name of the concept in case you didn't know). People with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of a task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge. I think you've demonstrated this perfectly.
Thank you for recognizing my part. Few pay me attention.
Why was this nonsense resurrected after a year and a quarter?
Because that's what trolls with a 16.2 IQ do.
I'm not entirely sure why it took the OP fifteen months to compose that reply, but anyways...
Mint errors are a result of some flaw, defect or breakdown in the coin minting machinery or processes. Minting a coin is a complex industrial process, but not really all that complex. There are only a small number of ways the machinery can break down and result in an error coin. Thus, "mint errors" can be classified, according to exactly where in the process the incident occurred, and what exactly broke down to create the error.
However, once a perfectly normal, non-error coin is struck and put into circulation, there are far, far more possible different ways that a coin can get damaged. It might fall into a wood-chipper, or get run over by a lawnmower, or get dropped into a vat of chemicals, or a myriad other deliberate or accidental ways it can get damaged. It may be impossible to explain exactly how the damage was applied to any specific post-mint-damaged coin; there could even be several different possible explanations.
Now, let's have a look at some of the OP's suggested explanations.
It is impossible - literally impossible - for just one side of a coin to be broadstruck. A broadstrike happens when the collar die - the ring-shaped apparatus that applies the milled edge to the coin and stops the metal from just squirting out the sides when the two main dies slam together - is completely missing. The metal in the coin then squirts out the sides, creating the thick, broad rim that is characteristic of a broadstrike, on both sides of the coin. A broadstrike is physically larger in diameter than a normal non-error coin of the same type, and the extended rim is usually thicker than the rest of the coin - not thinner, as is the case here.
This clearly has not happened on your coin, as you can clearly see the milled edge is perfectly intact, apart from where it has been removed on the bevelling.
Whenever you see an error/damaged coin, is it always far, far less likely that multiple independent errors on it have occurred simultaneously. You've postulated that something added the ring, while something else caused the double die, and another something else caused the bevelling on the other side. All allegedly happening in that same moment, when the coin was struck, or shortly afterwards.
Ockham's Razor says this is the least probable explanation. Far more likely is that a single event has caused all three evidences of damage.
In this case, let's start by focussing on those circles. They are clearly post-mint damage, as they run across both the fields and the lettering; a mint error/variety like a clashed die would not do this. Something - something post-mint - has carved those circles onto the coin; either a rotating device like a coin-rolling machine, or a dremel or some other drill-like tool. This same device has caused what you are seeing as "doubling" on the LI and elsewhere in the lettering.
And, I suspect, this same device has been the cause of the bevelling on the reverse.
How might this have been done? Note what I said earlier, about not always having a perfect explanation of a post-mint-damaged coin, because we weren't there to watch it happen. I agree that "washing machine damage" would probably have added a lot more scuffing to the reverse design, and would probably have totally obliterated all of the rim wording on the reverse. So I have two theories:
Most of the "post-mint damage" theories we could come up with, involves something somehow grinding away the rim of the reverse. In which case, the coin should be significantly lighter than a normal quarter. So, if the OP still has this coin, how about we get its weight, to the nearest 0.01 grams, and weigh a couple of normal quarters as well so we know the balance is calibrated properly.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
That’s a very well thought out, detailed and excellent post. Sadly, I still expect that it will fall on deaf ears. As I’m frequently reminded that it’s nearly impossible to overestimate the power of hoping or wishing, even when they’re confronted with actual facts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Maybe it took his 162 IQ that long to remember his forum password?
Don’t feed the trolls guys. Just like bears in Yellowstone, it makes them come back.
You know those parrot heads. (not the OP)
Buffeting damage from the keys.
File it under Margaritaville so you don't loose it.
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If you're gonna get all "sciencey" about this, provide evidence to disprove his hypothesis formed over several decades of working with error coins. To claim NGT is the "foremost expert in Astrophysics and understanding the universe and everything in it" is absurd. Hawking and NGT's thoughts on astrophysics and theoretical physics are irrelevant here, anyway. We're talking coins here, where the causes of coin errors (planchet prep and striking processes) are well known.
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I see one's IQ is as subject to inflation as the cost of goods and services.
The last guy I encountered who touted his supposed high IQ (also 162) was the author of a book that was full of ridiculous, erroneous claims because he'd never taken a course in physics and had no understanding of atmospheric processes or weather patterns. If you don't know your subject matter thoroughly, don't bother citing your IQ (actual or embellished)! It makes one look like a fool among those who understand error coins and how they're produced during the minting process.
Fred Weinberg is a published expert on error coins. I've known of him for many years, and I don't even have any interest in collecting error coins. He likely arrived at this conclusion from his, ahem, 'encyclopedic' knowledge of error coins and how they're produced in the minting process.
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Maybe the Op will come back in another year & a half and reply to our recent comments.
Better might be: why do we come back?
Disgruntled for fifteen months? Fred, add security; tell him your IQ is average.
He is not a troll, he takes this as important.
Lock this thread. I can’t stop parsing this tragicomedy.
His pics and text are ready for Craigslist.
Maybe that extra quarter year reminded him of his quarter.
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IQ 162 makes you become wiser?
Ignore a big IQ score, what many of them measure basically is abstract thinking and the ability to form relationships between seemingly unrelated terms.
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Here we go again. Just spend the coin and be done with it.
Let's all think about this and reconvene in another 16 months
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