In any case, I'm pretty happy with being able to buy a scarce early War of Independence Durango 8R for $60. These are all crude often with planchet issues.
@GotTheBug said:
For those of us not in the know on these, can you give the particulars as to rarity and significance of your NewP? Thanks.
Previous to 1810, the ores mined in and around Durango were shipped to Mexico City to be assayed and coined, but shortly after the outbreak of the War of Independence, transportation of valuable ores became dangerous. The governor of the province at the time ordered the establishment of a mint in Durango in 1811. The first year had the Nueva Vizcaya design (see below) and were obviously made under difficult conditions and struck from often subpar material. Practically all of them were poorly struck and many exhibited seriously defective planchets. 1812 was the first year of the portrait coinage. Calbeto documents 3 die pairs for that year. I believe the example above is Calbeto#69. All 3 are cataloged as very rare.
Here's an example of an 1811 Nueva Vizcaya issue. An incredible example that sold at HA in 2016 for just over $5k in NGC15 plastic.
I don't mean to derail this thread, but this coin is was my one foray into War for Independence coinage. I purchased it in a moment of weakness when I saw a similar one come up in a Mexican auction and the Bank of Mexico tried (and failed) to buy it for their collection. I got mine from an old-time dealer (who probably couldn't get rid of it on anyone else) and my hope was to sell it to the Bank of Mexico since they obviously wanted one.
It turned out the Bank of Mexico is too difficult to deal with (which Don Bailey always told me) and that hope never went anywhere.
The coin was so ugly that I couldn't sleep at night thinking about it in my collection. I kept myself going with the thought "only 5 known." Finally, I got the nerve to consign it, and thankfully it sold for a small profit. I redeployed the funds and never looked back.
I do have a couple of cool W4I coins now, but they are still raw, so no TrueViews. Zitacuaro is my favorite.
Here is the bloody beast (and note you can’t read the date, generally the kiss of death for a coin):
And in case you are interested in seeing the pedigrees (which are impressive), you can look here
To keep this post related to this thread, @TwoKopeiki I don't see how you can possibly authenticate that piece from those fuzzy photos. The series is rampant with fakes. Even at $60, I'd rather make money buying stocks than buying junque from ebay.
@GotTheBug said:
Thank you for the background. It makes me realize how little I know about our neighbor to the south, which is my loss. I'm going to work on that....
War of Independence period in Mexico is fascinating from the numismatic point of view. Decentralization of minting operations, local governments coin re-evaluations and crude new issues done under emergency conditions, lack of minting equipment in new mints, casting planchets and coins, overstriking previous issues, etc... I'd love to get into it more, perhaps in a few years If i have more time and traveling flexibility.
@pruebas - that's an incredible coin, even for its flaws. Previous to Stacks, it was sold in 2005 in a Cayon sale. To own a Zongolica 8 Reales is to own a piece of Mexican independence history. What's more patriotic than a story of two priests and a lawyer turning insurgent generals and raising an army to fight against the Royalists with funds raised from capturing a warehouse full of government tobacco, striking their own coinage in the process?
To keep this post related to this thread, @TwoKopeiki I don't see how you can possibly authenticate that piece from those fuzzy photos. The series is rampant with fakes. Even at $60, I'd rather make money buying stocks than buying junque from ebay.
There's no downside. There are no contemporary 1812 Durango portrait counterfeits documented matching an official die pair. There are also no modern numismatic forgeries of an 1812 Durango portrait documented. It's most likely genuine, but if it happens to not be - would still sell for a nice premium to a counterfeit collector.
@GotTheBug said:
Thank you for the background. It makes me realize how little I know about our neighbor to the south, which is my loss. I'm going to work on that....
War of Independence period in Mexico is fascinating from the numismatic point of view. Decentralization of minting operations, local governments coin re-evaluations and crude new issues done under emergency conditions, lack of minting equipment in new mints, casting planchets and coins, overstriking previous issues, etc... I'd love to get into it more, perhaps in a few years If i have more time and traveling flexibility.
@pruebas - that's an incredible coin, even for its flaws. Previous to Stacks, it was sold in 2005 in a Cayon sale. To own a Zongolica 8 Reales is to own a piece of Mexican independence history. What's more patriotic than a story of two priests and a lawyer turning insurgent generals and raising an army to fight against the Royalists with funds raised from capturing a warehouse full of government tobacco, striking their own coinage in the process?
It actually did not sell in Cayón, despite what records say. It failed to meet reserve. (It was not my coin at that time, so I don't know why it shows as sold.)
Sure it has great history. I just couldn't learn to love it. I did the same with the 1870-ZsYH 8R, which is even rarer. But I didn't love it either.
To keep this post related to this thread, @TwoKopeiki I don't see how you can possibly authenticate that piece from those fuzzy photos. The series is rampant with fakes. Even at $60, I'd rather make money buying stocks than buying junque from ebay.
There's no downside. There are no contemporary 1812 Durango portrait counterfeits documented matching an official die pair. There are also no modern numismatic forgeries of an 1812 Durango portrait documented. It's most likely genuine, but if it happens to not be - would still sell for a nice premium to a counterfeit collector.
Well I wish you good luck. You can't go wrong as long as you have fun with your coins. And hopefully it will be a profitable endeavor. Check back in when you sell it and let us know how you did.
Well, didn't know this was something USPS could do. Looks like the shipped coin was "intercepted" by USPS and being sent back to the seller and I just got a refund.
Next time i'll wait until i get it in-hand before posting any info on the forums / IG. Someone must have tipped off the seller. Oh, well, that's what i get for getting excited Hope he gets a lot more than $60 when he re-sells it, since it will need to make him feel better about having my negative feedback on his profile.
The sender can request to have a package returned to him if it hasn't already been delivered.
USPS Package Intercept
For a fee, USPS Package Intercept® lets the sender or recipient stop delivery or redirect a package, letter, or flat that is not out for delivery or already delivered. Most domestic mailings with a tracking or extra services barcode are eligible for Package Intercept. You can only request a Package Intercept online.
Be very careful of posting cherrypicks before you have received them. I get random messages a few times a year with people sending me links to varieties or other such things I missed when listing online. It makes no difference to me (believe me, if I missed the variety on something when selling it, I missed it when buying, so I already made my money on it), but there are absolutely people out there who for whatever reason make it their prerogative to alert sellers when they've been cherrypicked.
As for the guy doing a package intercept on it, that's pretty low.
@pruebas I should not be surprised that you owned a Zongolica... Who else? However I have to say that the Nueva Vizcaya 1811 8R still is in my list to get despite its crudeness. I love that coin. One day...
No communication until the note on the refund that said "I apologize for posting the coin with the wrong price. The value of this coin, as you perhaps know, is several multiple times the listed price." I would be more inclined to believe this was an honest error and he knew this was a scarce type if he didn't list a bunch of various low-grade and cleaned portrait 8 Reales along with it, all with generic descriptions, and all with the same $60 BIN.
Anyway, i'm just mad at myself. But hey, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
I've sold things well below their value before. Even after finding out, I just chalked it up to good lesson. You should put the definition of integrity or ethics as your feedback.
TwoKopeiki
Posts: 9,539 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
In any case, I'm pretty happy with being able to buy a scarce early War of Independence Durango 8R for $60. These are all crude often with planchet issues.
Some comps:
Crazy pandemic pricing:
https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/en/single/l32837679
Pre-pandemic:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/durango/world-coins/mexico-durango-ferdinand-vii-8-reales-1812-d-rm-vg10-ngc-/a/231751-63318.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/en/single/l28197858
8 Reales Madness Collection
I thought you had retired from the WOI coinage.
Well for $60, I guess it's hard to go wrong. Congrats on your find.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Honestly, could not just keep scrolling past it.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Congrats! Nice pick
Latin American Collection
Thanks!
8 Reales Madness Collection
If it’s genuine…..
I'm not worried about that, but is there something makes you think its not?
8 Reales Madness Collection
Not my area of expertise, but the fuzzy photos give me pause.
For those of us not in the know on these, can you give the particulars as to rarity and significance of your NewP? Thanks.
Previous to 1810, the ores mined in and around Durango were shipped to Mexico City to be assayed and coined, but shortly after the outbreak of the War of Independence, transportation of valuable ores became dangerous. The governor of the province at the time ordered the establishment of a mint in Durango in 1811. The first year had the Nueva Vizcaya design (see below) and were obviously made under difficult conditions and struck from often subpar material. Practically all of them were poorly struck and many exhibited seriously defective planchets. 1812 was the first year of the portrait coinage. Calbeto documents 3 die pairs for that year. I believe the example above is Calbeto#69. All 3 are cataloged as very rare.
Here's an example of an 1811 Nueva Vizcaya issue. An incredible example that sold at HA in 2016 for just over $5k in NGC15 plastic.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I don't mean to derail this thread, but this coin is was my one foray into War for Independence coinage. I purchased it in a moment of weakness when I saw a similar one come up in a Mexican auction and the Bank of Mexico tried (and failed) to buy it for their collection. I got mine from an old-time dealer (who probably couldn't get rid of it on anyone else) and my hope was to sell it to the Bank of Mexico since they obviously wanted one.
It turned out the Bank of Mexico is too difficult to deal with (which Don Bailey always told me) and that hope never went anywhere.
The coin was so ugly that I couldn't sleep at night thinking about it in my collection. I kept myself going with the thought "only 5 known." Finally, I got the nerve to consign it, and thankfully it sold for a small profit. I redeployed the funds and never looked back.
I do have a couple of cool W4I coins now, but they are still raw, so no TrueViews. Zitacuaro is my favorite.
Here is the bloody beast (and note you can’t read the date, generally the kiss of death for a coin):
And in case you are interested in seeing the pedigrees (which are impressive), you can look here
To keep this post related to this thread, @TwoKopeiki I don't see how you can possibly authenticate that piece from those fuzzy photos. The series is rampant with fakes. Even at $60, I'd rather make money buying stocks than buying junque from ebay.
Thank you for the background. It makes me realize how little I know about our neighbor to the south, which is my loss. I'm going to work on that....
War of Independence period in Mexico is fascinating from the numismatic point of view. Decentralization of minting operations, local governments coin re-evaluations and crude new issues done under emergency conditions, lack of minting equipment in new mints, casting planchets and coins, overstriking previous issues, etc... I'd love to get into it more, perhaps in a few years If i have more time and traveling flexibility.
@pruebas - that's an incredible coin, even for its flaws. Previous to Stacks, it was sold in 2005 in a Cayon sale. To own a Zongolica 8 Reales is to own a piece of Mexican independence history. What's more patriotic than a story of two priests and a lawyer turning insurgent generals and raising an army to fight against the Royalists with funds raised from capturing a warehouse full of government tobacco, striking their own coinage in the process?
There's no downside. There are no contemporary 1812 Durango portrait counterfeits documented matching an official die pair. There are also no modern numismatic forgeries of an 1812 Durango portrait documented. It's most likely genuine, but if it happens to not be - would still sell for a nice premium to a counterfeit collector.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I hunt for coins toned in OGP sets. Found this with bad photos but it looks promising.
It actually did not sell in Cayón, despite what records say. It failed to meet reserve. (It was not my coin at that time, so I don't know why it shows as sold.)
Sure it has great history. I just couldn't learn to love it. I did the same with the 1870-ZsYH 8R, which is even rarer. But I didn't love it either.
Well I wish you good luck. You can't go wrong as long as you have fun with your coins. And hopefully it will be a profitable endeavor. Check back in when you sell it and let us know how you did.
Well, didn't know this was something USPS could do. Looks like the shipped coin was "intercepted" by USPS and being sent back to the seller and I just got a refund.
Next time i'll wait until i get it in-hand before posting any info on the forums / IG. Someone must have tipped off the seller. Oh, well, that's what i get for getting excited
Hope he gets a lot more than $60 when he re-sells it, since it will need to make him feel better about having my negative feedback on his profile.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Intercepted???
Latin American Collection
The sender can request to have a package returned to him if it hasn't already been delivered.
USPS Package Intercept
For a fee, USPS Package Intercept® lets the sender or recipient stop delivery or redirect a package, letter, or flat that is not out for delivery or already delivered. Most domestic mailings with a tracking or extra services barcode are eligible for Package Intercept. You can only request a Package Intercept online.
https://www.usps.com/manage/package-intercept.htm
Yeah, this was a new one for me, too. In fact, if tracking is accurate, it was delivered to a PO Box and taken out of it almost immediately.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Well I looked up the seller so I could be be sure not to use them and, for what little it's worth, added them to my blocked list.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Be very careful of posting cherrypicks before you have received them. I get random messages a few times a year with people sending me links to varieties or other such things I missed when listing online. It makes no difference to me (believe me, if I missed the variety on something when selling it, I missed it when buying, so I already made my money on it), but there are absolutely people out there who for whatever reason make it their prerogative to alert sellers when they've been cherrypicked.
As for the guy doing a package intercept on it, that's pretty low.
Justin Meunier
Boardwalk Numismatics
@pruebas I should not be surprised that you owned a Zongolica... Who else? However I have to say that the Nueva Vizcaya 1811 8R still is in my list to get despite its crudeness. I love that coin. One day...
@TwoKopeiki - what did the seller say to you???
My current "Box of 20"
Someone saw it in this thread and most likely messaged the seller with a handsome offer. Let's just hope it's not a regular here.
No communication until the note on the refund that said "I apologize for posting the coin with the wrong price. The value of this coin, as you perhaps know, is several multiple times the listed price." I would be more inclined to believe this was an honest error and he knew this was a scarce type if he didn't list a bunch of various low-grade and cleaned portrait 8 Reales along with it, all with generic descriptions, and all with the same $60 BIN.
Anyway, i'm just mad at myself. But hey, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I've sold things well below their value before. Even after finding out, I just chalked it up to good lesson. You should put the definition of integrity or ethics as your feedback.
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
He shipped the coin so clearly not an error in listing price
Latin American Collection
Ok @TwoKopeiki you got the money back and you learned the name of a seller that should be avoided. The way I see it, you won.