Rive d'Or Gold Indians--Always "dirty"?

stownsin

Hello, everyone.

I thought maybe this had appeared in the boards somewhere, but I could not find such a discussion. Has anyone ever noticed that almost all of the Rive d'Or gold coins seem to look dirty--especially the Indians? I was wondering if anyone knew why this was. Here are some examples:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265232566777?hash=item3dc117c9f9:g:D6MAAOSwe8Fg8Y50
https://www.ebay.com/itm/194207656274?hash=item2d37ada952:g:susAAOSwZVFgzM2i

The other types do not seem to have this issue and much of the unsightly grime you see seems to be on the smooth surfaces of the coins...

Treashunt

Interesting

ricko

I had not taken notice of that, but that is likely because I have only looked at a couple of those over a long period of time. Thanks for the links... Cheers, RickO

pcgscacgold

Maybe for a reason similar to why many of the Fairmont collection have black as well. I have been told by several dealers it is the Euro look from sitting in hoards overseas. Very common among Fairmont Libs.

JJM

Mine have a dirtier look but not bad

stownsin

Another: https://coins.ha.com/itm/indian-half-eagles/1911-s-5-xf45-pcgs-ex-rive-d-or-collection-pcgs-population-118-1311-ngc-census-90-1908-mintage-1-416-000-numismedia/a/131145-23122.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

One more: https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1909-s-5/8516/100460809645270767

CaptHenway

"It is commonly believed" (translation: there is a 50:50 chance that it is true) that that dirt on the high points of the coins was caused by the coins being dragged across counting tables, which had themselves picked up dirt from earlier coins.

I believe that theory.

Some people believe that this rub constitutes wear, which makes the coin no better than an AU-58. Other people believe that if there is no other evidence of circulation wear (the random pattern of contact marks that a coin picks up from random contact with various sized coins in a pocket or coin purse) then the coin can and should qualify for a low Mint State grade, such as a 61 or a 62. Many such people believe that the dirt should be left on the coin to show that it is original.

I can see either of these positions. Fortunately, I am now retired and do not need to justify either position.

TD

Dscoin

This is a MS62 CAC and it does look somewhat dirty in person. So I would hold your hypothesis true in this case

https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/28558289/large/215896799.jpg

RedSeals

Ive heard this referred to as "vault crust" from euro banks. To some (myself when its attractive crust) this is desireable and a sign of originality.

JonBrand83

This what mine a while back. It wasnt dirty but had a really deep nice orange color.

pmh1nic

I see what you mean by dirty in the Ebay pictures but I really don't recall that kind of dirty being normal for the series in general.

PerryHall

@RedSeals said:
Ive heard this referred to as "vault crust" from euro banks. To some (myself when its attractive crust) this is desireable and a sign of originality.

That's a new term for me and it sure describes the coin well. I've heard the term "Euro dirt" used a lot. While not always very attractive, it at least signifies originality which is why I tolerate it.

1946Hamm

Mine doesn't look that bad.

stownsin

Thanks for the responses! What puzzles me is the fact that this grime/dirt/crust/whatever only seems to appear on the incuse Indians. If I were to hazard a guess, I would be willing to bet that the incuse Indians were all stored in a specific vault or location within a vault that subjected them to environmental conditions not encountered by other gold coins stored in different vaults or locations within the same vault. Perhaps the bags used for the incuse Indians were different. Perhaps they were stored in a location that had higher humidity and/or heat.

Very puzzling, indeed. Chemically speaking, what is this grime, anyway?

RedSeals

@PerryHall said:

@RedSeals said:
Ive heard this referred to as "vault crust" from euro banks. To some (myself when its attractive crust) this is desireable and a sign of originality.

That's a new term for me and it sure describes the coin well. I've heard the term "Euro dirt" used a lot. While not always very attractive, it at least signifies originality which is why I tolerate it.

Doug Winter referred to it as "vault dirt" I think thats the term I meant!

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2019/5/10/one-of-the-coolest-hoards-of-us-gold-coins-ever-seen-has-entered-the-market-and-you-probably-dont-even-know-about-it

"Typically, coins from overseas banks have dark black smudges on the high spots. I refer to this as “vault dirt” and while it doesn’t bother me, it certainly isn’t attractive and it is a turn-off to many collectors."

Smudge

Toning may account for some of the “dirt”.