Availability of mintmark punches

jesbroken

Has an old mintmark punch(regardless of mint location) ever been available? Such as a master punch for punching the dies?
I have never seen one and understand that they may have been destroyed to prevent misuse. Just wondered what they looked like and if they were used by hand or machine and when did that change, if at all. I'm sure their are books available, which would explain their useage the best?

TurtleCat

My understanding is they are just letter punches. The worker would place it at the right spot and hit the punch with a hammer. Probably used until too worn and then disposed of or recycled.

jesbroken

I think it would be neat to hold in my hand a punch used for many thousand of coins from any of the mints. I had not thought about them being worn out, but would still hope to find one some day.
Jim

TurtleCat

I have always suspected from what I read that they simply used a letter of appropriate size from letter sets they had. Not something specially designated for mint marks.

mannie gray

In Wexler's "The RPM Book" (1983) there is a discussion on this and a few pictures on page 8, although the pictures are kind od hard to see in any great detail. I don't know if the book is still in print or not.
The punches would not just be random letter punches that would be laying around. They would almost certainly be designated mintmark punches .If

messydesk

Mint mark punches were far smaller than punches from sets of letter punches that might have been used on medals. They were made to use as mint marks, and would be used for as many years as wear and tear and design changes permitted.

jesbroken

@mannie gray said:
In Wexler's "The RPM Book" (1983) there is a discussion on this and a few pictures on page 8, although the pictures are kind od hard to see in any great detail. I don't know if the book is still in print or not.
The punches would not just be random letter punches that would be laying around. They would almost certainly be designated mintmark punches .If

Is there any copies available at a reasonable price? Other than ebay. The last I saw on AMAZON was $15.95 and now ebay has them from $40 to $88. I guess they get what they can. Hard to pay that just for the possibility of a brief discussion on the subject.
Jim

CaptHenway

First of all, the Mint's Engraving Department did not need sets of all 26 letter punches. They either hand made or purchased the letters found on coins in the various sizes needed. Then probably had complete runs of digit punches.

Second, the wide variety of mint mark punches makes me suspect that the individual engravers hand made their own mint mark punches. This may have helped keep track of who worked on a particular reverse die. As I say this is only a suspicion.

Mr_Spud

From https://www.doubleddie.com/58243.html

ricko

I would really like to get a CC punch....That would fill out my CC Morgan series nicely. Plus, it is the only double letter mint mark. No idea if they had a double mint mark punch, or if they punched two C's side by side. Either one is possible, and some variations look as if it was a single punch, twice applied. Cheers, RickO

cmerlo1

@jesbroken said:
I think it would be neat to hold in my hand a punch used for many thousand of coins from any of the mints. I had not thought about them being worn out, but would still hope to find one some day.
Jim

Especially one that is easily identified, like the trumpet-tail S. I wonder if they ended up with a 'Property of US Mint' stamp on them after they were made.

jesbroken

It's really odd that none survived. At least, I have never heard of one being offered for sale at an auction or other sales arena. I truly would like one of those better than a die.
Jim

Mr_Spud

I wonder if they were regular typeset punches

JBK

I can't imagine that the mintmark punches were high tech or high security items. The one pictured above looks like a regular letter punch.

Some companies that make letter punches sell individual letters. I assume the mint bought or made what it needed.

As for special markings on the punches, I doubt they had any. After all, dies themselves weren't marked. I have some US Navy punches and they don't have any governmental markings, only the manufacturer's markings.

Mr_Spud

This makes me think they made their own and Edgar Steever knows where they are, if he’s still around. I wonder if that’s him in the picture I posted earlier in thread
.
From https://www.numismaticnews.net/archive/ngc-discovers-new-mintmark-variety
Variety/error specialist Ken Potter revealed that he’d seen a box full of different puncheons while taking a 1998 tour of the Philadelphia Mint. These were preserved by the Engraving Department’s Edgar Steever, who’d been at the Mint for decades and was reportedly the main applier of mintmarks before this feature began to be sculpted into the master dies starting in the 1980s. It was thus possible that any number of different mintmark styles remained on hand in 1968.

jesbroken

@Mr_Spud said:
This makes me think they made their own and Edgar Steever knows where they are, if he’s still around. I wonder if that’s him in the picture I posted earlier in thread
.
From https://www.numismaticnews.net/archive/ngc-discovers-new-mintmark-variety
Variety/error specialist Ken Potter revealed that he’d seen a box full of different puncheons while taking a 1998 tour of the Philadelphia Mint. These were preserved by the Engraving Department’s Edgar Steever, who’d been at the Mint for decades and was reportedly the main applier of mintmarks before this feature began to be sculpted into the master dies starting in the 1980s. It was thus possible that any number of different mintmark styles remained on hand in 1968.

There was an engraver for the Mint named Edgar Zell Steever, IV that passed away November 26, 2006. Not sure if that was him in your photo or not.
Jim

PerryHall

@ricko said:
I would really like to get a CC punch....That would fill out my CC Morgan series nicely. Plus, it is the only double letter mint mark. No idea if they had a double mint mark punch, or if they punched two C's side by side. Either one is possible, and some variations look as if it was a single punch, twice applied. Cheers, RickO

They used a single C punch twice to create the CC mintmark.

silviosi

I reopen for the interest of all. The photo presented before it is for a MM punch before 1960. Here are 2 examples of 60 till 1989 2 punches. One (the big) for Halves and the second for quarters.

JBK

Were these "demilitarized" for lack of a better word? Why the bent ends? 🤔

Nysoto

This is how it was done in 1795, written by Chief Engraver Robert Scot, "...and raising and finishing all punches that may be requisite to the completion of Dies or Hubbs; letter punches excepted. These may be imported or procured from those of that profession."

That explains the variation in numeral punch styles and sizes of that period, as Scot made them. The letter punches were Caslon typeface and were more consistent.

edit - Jacob Bay made Mint punches until he died of yellow fever in 1793. He had a replacement, but I believe that by late 1794 Scot was making the punches except for the imported or procured letter punches, of which Scot had good connections with makers from his copperplate engraving and printing business - which he still had until 1800.

silviosi

• > Were these "demilitarized" for lack of a better word? Why the bent ends?
  I like the quotation "demilitarized". Yes are cancelled punch and I have from West Point. The reason been curved was for the engraved to hold better and also been placed to the most right place for the MM when was full manually. In the end of the 70's and in 80's was use small presses instead of the hand hammered punch.

The more I can say it is just about the composition of the punch metal alloy.

silviosi

Sorry forgot to post the new photo.

BuffaloIronTail

I wish we knew where the "Large S" on 1928 coins came from, or why it was used to begin with. No other denomination had it.

Why was it even used in the first place?

Did the original punch get misplaced?

We'll never know.

Pete

jesbroken

@BuffaloIronTail said:
I wish we knew where the "Large S" on 1928 coins came from, or why it was used to begin with. No other denomination had it.

Why was it even used in the first place?

Did the original punch get misplaced?

We'll never know.

Pete

I have wondered that very question for years. Why Philadelphia mint did that, it appears no one knows. Why their wouldn't be a written explanation somewhere is beyond me. I wish someone might find a document to clear this up.
Jim

dcarr

@BuffaloIronTail said:
I wish we knew where the "Large S" on 1928 coins came from, or why it was used to begin with. No other denomination had it.

Why was it even used in the first place?

Did the original punch get misplaced?

We'll never know.

Pete

Some 1928-S cents and quarters (about 50% of them) have the Large S mint mark. The rest have the normal (small) mint mark.

jesbroken

@dcarr
Were the mint marks placed on the dies in Philadelphia before sending to San Francisco as were the Mercury Dimes?
Jim

BuffaloIronTail

Clarification: The "Large S" mintmark of 1928 appeared on Cents, Dimes, Quarters and Half Dollars

Buffalo Nickels all had the normal mintmark, probably because the mintage was finished before the Large S appeared. Likewise the Dollar coins.

Pete

BuffaloIronTail

@jesbroken said:
@dcarr
Were the mint marks placed on the dies in Philadelphia before sending to San Francisco as were the Mercury Dimes?
Jim

In 1928 the mintmarks were all applied at the Philadelphia Mint.

They were all hand punched into the die after it was finished, then the dies were shipped to the Branch Mints.

Pete