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Availability of mintmark punches

jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

Has an old mintmark punch(regardless of mint location) ever been available? Such as a master punch for punching the dies?
I have never seen one and understand that they may have been destroyed to prevent misuse. Just wondered what they looked like and if they were used by hand or machine and when did that change, if at all. I'm sure their are books available, which would explain their useage the best?


When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain

Comments

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My understanding is they are just letter punches. The worker would place it at the right spot and hit the punch with a hammer. Probably used until too worn and then disposed of or recycled.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it would be neat to hold in my hand a punch used for many thousand of coins from any of the mints. I had not thought about them being worn out, but would still hope to find one some day.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have always suspected from what I read that they simply used a letter of appropriate size from letter sets they had. Not something specially designated for mint marks.

  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In Wexler's "The RPM Book" (1983) there is a discussion on this and a few pictures on page 8, although the pictures are kind od hard to see in any great detail. I don't know if the book is still in print or not.
    The punches would not just be random letter punches that would be laying around. They would almost certainly be designated mintmark punches .If

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mint mark punches were far smaller than punches from sets of letter punches that might have been used on medals. They were made to use as mint marks, and would be used for as many years as wear and tear and design changes permitted.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mannie gray said:
    In Wexler's "The RPM Book" (1983) there is a discussion on this and a few pictures on page 8, although the pictures are kind od hard to see in any great detail. I don't know if the book is still in print or not.
    The punches would not just be random letter punches that would be laying around. They would almost certainly be designated mintmark punches .If

    Is there any copies available at a reasonable price? Other than ebay. The last I saw on AMAZON was $15.95 and now ebay has them from $40 to $88. I guess they get what they can. Hard to pay that just for the possibility of a brief discussion on the subject.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    First of all, the Mint's Engraving Department did not need sets of all 26 letter punches. They either hand made or purchased the letters found on coins in the various sizes needed. Then probably had complete runs of digit punches.

    Second, the wide variety of mint mark punches makes me suspect that the individual engravers hand made their own mint mark punches. This may have helped keep track of who worked on a particular reverse die. As I say this is only a suspicion.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would really like to get a CC punch....That would fill out my CC Morgan series nicely. Plus, it is the only double letter mint mark. No idea if they had a double mint mark punch, or if they punched two C's side by side. Either one is possible, and some variations look as if it was a single punch, twice applied. Cheers, RickO

  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    I think it would be neat to hold in my hand a punch used for many thousand of coins from any of the mints. I had not thought about them being worn out, but would still hope to find one some day.
    Jim

    Especially one that is easily identified, like the trumpet-tail S. I wonder if they ended up with a 'Property of US Mint' stamp on them after they were made.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's really odd that none survived. At least, I have never heard of one being offered for sale at an auction or other sales arena. I truly would like one of those better than a die.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,354 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if they were regular typeset punches

    Mr_Spud

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can't imagine that the mintmark punches were high tech or high security items. The one pictured above looks like a regular letter punch.

    Some companies that make letter punches sell individual letters. I assume the mint bought or made what it needed.

    As for special markings on the punches, I doubt they had any. After all, dies themselves weren't marked. I have some US Navy punches and they don't have any governmental markings, only the manufacturer's markings.

  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,354 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2021 9:23PM

    This makes me think they made their own and Edgar Steever knows where they are, if he’s still around. I wonder if that’s him in the picture I posted earlier in thread
    .
    From https://www.numismaticnews.net/archive/ngc-discovers-new-mintmark-variety
    Variety/error specialist Ken Potter revealed that he’d seen a box full of different puncheons while taking a 1998 tour of the Philadelphia Mint. These were preserved by the Engraving Department’s Edgar Steever, who’d been at the Mint for decades and was reportedly the main applier of mintmarks before this feature began to be sculpted into the master dies starting in the 1980s. It was thus possible that any number of different mintmark styles remained on hand in 1968.

    Mr_Spud

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mr_Spud said:
    This makes me think they made their own and Edgar Steever knows where they are, if he’s still around. I wonder if that’s him in the picture I posted earlier in thread
    .
    From https://www.numismaticnews.net/archive/ngc-discovers-new-mintmark-variety
    Variety/error specialist Ken Potter revealed that he’d seen a box full of different puncheons while taking a 1998 tour of the Philadelphia Mint. These were preserved by the Engraving Department’s Edgar Steever, who’d been at the Mint for decades and was reportedly the main applier of mintmarks before this feature began to be sculpted into the master dies starting in the 1980s. It was thus possible that any number of different mintmark styles remained on hand in 1968.

    There was an engraver for the Mint named Edgar Zell Steever, IV that passed away November 26, 2006. Not sure if that was him in your photo or not.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    I would really like to get a CC punch....That would fill out my CC Morgan series nicely. Plus, it is the only double letter mint mark. No idea if they had a double mint mark punch, or if they punched two C's side by side. Either one is possible, and some variations look as if it was a single punch, twice applied. Cheers, RickO

    They used a single C punch twice to create the CC mintmark.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 454 ✭✭✭

    I reopen for the interest of all. The photo presented before it is for a MM punch before 1960. Here are 2 examples of 60 till 1989 2 punches. One (the big) for Halves and the second for quarters.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2023 5:48PM

    Were these "demilitarized" for lack of a better word? Why the bent ends? 🤔

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2023 4:25PM

    This is how it was done in 1795, written by Chief Engraver Robert Scot, "...and raising and finishing all punches that may be requisite to the completion of Dies or Hubbs; letter punches excepted. These may be imported or procured from those of that profession."

    That explains the variation in numeral punch styles and sizes of that period, as Scot made them. The letter punches were Caslon typeface and were more consistent.

    edit - Jacob Bay made Mint punches until he died of yellow fever in 1793. He had a replacement, but I believe that by late 1794 Scot was making the punches except for the imported or procured letter punches, of which Scot had good connections with makers from his copperplate engraving and printing business - which he still had until 1800.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    • > Were these "demilitarized" for lack of a better word? Why the bent ends?
      I like the quotation "demilitarized". Yes are cancelled punch and I have from West Point. The reason been curved was for the engraved to hold better and also been placed to the most right place for the MM when was full manually. In the end of the 70's and in 80's was use small presses instead of the hand hammered punch.

    The more I can say it is just about the composition of the punch metal alloy.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 454 ✭✭✭

    Sorry forgot to post the new photo.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wish we knew where the "Large S" on 1928 coins came from, or why it was used to begin with. No other denomination had it.

    Why was it even used in the first place?

    Did the original punch get misplaced?

    We'll never know.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:
    I wish we knew where the "Large S" on 1928 coins came from, or why it was used to begin with. No other denomination had it.

    Why was it even used in the first place?

    Did the original punch get misplaced?

    We'll never know.

    Pete

    I have wondered that very question for years. Why Philadelphia mint did that, it appears no one knows. Why their wouldn't be a written explanation somewhere is beyond me. I wish someone might find a document to clear this up.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:
    I wish we knew where the "Large S" on 1928 coins came from, or why it was used to begin with. No other denomination had it.

    Why was it even used in the first place?

    Did the original punch get misplaced?

    We'll never know.

    Pete

    Some 1928-S cents and quarters (about 50% of them) have the Large S mint mark. The rest have the normal (small) mint mark.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr
    Were the mint marks placed on the dies in Philadelphia before sending to San Francisco as were the Mercury Dimes?
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Clarification: The "Large S" mintmark of 1928 appeared on Cents, Dimes, Quarters and Half Dollars

    Buffalo Nickels all had the normal mintmark, probably because the mintage was finished before the Large S appeared. Likewise the Dollar coins.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:
    @dcarr
    Were the mint marks placed on the dies in Philadelphia before sending to San Francisco as were the Mercury Dimes?
    Jim

    In 1928 the mintmarks were all applied at the Philadelphia Mint.

    They were all hand punched into the die after it was finished, then the dies were shipped to the Branch Mints.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon

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