Cello Box Ethics - BBCE, Stars and FASC

nendee

Suppose you have a box you are putting together, say ‘75 cellos. You can fill a box, send it to Steve and get it authenticated. Since 75’s have few - if any - FASC’s, that hand collated box would have the same practical value as an “intact” box. (If such thing exists)

Question - should the hand collator put in a couple “stars showing on top” cellos to give the box credence?

JakeR2234

Should they? No.

Frozencaribou

I opened a BBCE wrapped 1980 Topps cello box a few years back purchased straight from BBCE. There was one pack with Pete Rose showing that was obviously not from the same group of cellos. I personally would have rather had as much continuity as possible, or have just a couple of different sources than a frankenbox, but that's from a perspective of opening the cards.

I would say its a pretty good conundrum you've got there!

billwaltonsbeard

It's my understanding that if a rack/cello box isn't FASC, BBCE will identify stars showing on the label.

nendee

@billwaltonsbeard said:
It's my understanding that if a rack/cello box isn't FASC, BBCE will identify stars showing on the label.

I was thinking that would be a good idea, but I haven’t seen one marked like that. Can someone post an image?

tulsaboy

As someone who can't afford a complete, intact box of anything pre-1986 or so, I have found myself in the position of assembling rack boxes as I have money to. My boxes are a nice mix of packs where some have superstars on top, some have minor stars on top (like Murphy or Rice or Perry) and some are just straight commons. That's an approximation of how they came from the factory, with an unpredictable blend of packs that have all sorts of different players on top. I'm a George Brett/Royals fan, so most of my boxes have a Brett pack in them, along with a few packs featuring Royals players. I do all of this because it makes me happy. Not because I'm trying to imitate a factory box, or because I feel like I have some sort of obligation to do so. It just makes me happy. I also don't get my boxes wrapped because I like seeing the actual packs, and being able to open the box lid to see what's inside.

I think generally speaking, most people who buy wrapped boxes now assume that they contain 24 packs without any major stars showing. At this point, most of those boxes have been cherry picked. So I think for most collectors of unopened, a BBCE wrapped box of cellos or racks simply is a guarantee of the contents being authentic, but not a guarantee of any particular mix of stars on top. The "credence" of the box is Steve's wrap and seal that indicate that he has examined the contents, and determined that they are authentic factory wrapped packs. Some folks who get boxes wrapped will stick a few star packs in, and then Steve will (within reason and only on request) note on the label that there is a Boggs rookie on top, or an Eddie Murray on top, etc. But I think that if you are sending in a box to be wrapped for resale, there is no particular obligation to "mix in" some star packs. I think it's a nice thing to do, and can result in a nice surprise for the purchaser. But anymore, if you are doing a super high-dollar box (like a 1975 cello box) the odds that the purchaser is going to unwrap the box is small. The cost of having a high dollar box wrapped, and the guarantee that it provides (along with the ease of quick resale) means that most of those higher dollar boxes, once wrapped, won't be unwrapped. As such, sticking star packs into a high dollar box that will be wrapped probably doesn't gain you anything, if your focus is return on the dollar. In fact, it probably costs you because you deaccession the star pack without obtaining a "star pack" price.

I don't wrap my boxes, and I don't buy wrapped boxes, precisely because I like knowing what's in there. FASC is lovely, but you are just as likely to get 24 common packs as you are to get some superstar or rookie on top. I'd rather spend the money to buy the star pack and stick it into my box. If you actually do the math, for a cello or rack box, if you want to guarantee having a particular player on top, it will take searching about 10 boxes or so to find that player on top. That, to me, makes FASC a fool's errand.

And of course, this is just one cheap collector's opinion.

kevin

1959

Tulsaboy, I do the same thing and agree with you completely. I buy old cellos packs one at a time at shows and from local dealers and put them in may 77, 78, and 79 box Fun to have and enjoyable to look at.

blurryface

i understand why you think its an ethics problem. i just dont think it is one. and no, i dont think you should attempt to make the box something more than it is. i also think perhaps knowingly placing a star showing pack in there IS attempting to make the box seem more than it is.

this is exactly why fasc garners a premium. and this is also the reason i try and stay away from non-fasc as much as i possibly can.

GroceryRackPack

Frankenstein

baz518

I used to build rack boxes (78 and later) for my pc... I always included at least one rack with each of the HOF rookies showing on front or back. But that's when you could get racks with Murray/Molitor/Ozzie/Henderson showing for under $150.

dontippet

@blurryface said:
i understand why you think its an ethics problem. i just dont think it is one. and no, i dont think you should attempt to make the box something more than it is. i also think perhaps knowingly placing a star showing pack in there IS attempting to make the box seem more than it is.

this is exactly why fasc garners a premium. and this is also the reason i try and stay away from non-fasc as much as i possibly can.

Exactly, if you attempting to make the box seem more than it is, then, no it should not be done.

billwaltonsbeard

@nendee said:

@billwaltonsbeard said:
It's my understanding that if a rack/cello box isn't FASC, BBCE will identify stars showing on the label.

I was thinking that would be a good idea, but I haven’t seen one marked like that. Can someone post an image?

https://ebay.com/itm/324570172933?hash=item4b91e3ce05:g:q2kAAOSwAnZgQTH3

grote15

As an unopened collector, the most important thing for me is that all the packs within the box are authentic. FASC is also essentially non existent for anything earlier than 1978 other than 75 mini and 77 wax so as a buyer I just assume any box was likely put together at some point.

Webb63

Regarding what makes the FASC box so much more valuable, it' not just the chance of having packs with Stars showing, but the assurance that NONE of the packs have been cherry-picked or removed based on knowing the sequencing patterns for that product.

nendee

This thread is assuming that the cello year in question has no FASC’s available - as Grote15 mentions - when you get older than 78, FASC is basically non existent. All those “wrapped” BBCE boxes are collated.

esquiresports

I don't think that is what Grote15 is stating. He is saying that pre-1977 sealed cases are not out there, so the boxes cannot be labeled FASC. Many (I would guess most, save for a pack or two here and there) pre-1977 boxes are likely as originally distributed, just lacking the provenance to be FASC.

nendee

@esquiresports said:
I don't think that is what Grote15 is stating. He is saying that pre-1977 sealed cases are not out there, so the boxes cannot be labeled FASC. Many (I would guess most, save for a pack or two here and there) pre-1977 boxes are likely as originally distributed, just lacking the provenance to be FASC.

You're correct - there is no way to mark any cello box as FASC, because sealed cases don't exist. That said, there isn't a premium for FASC cello boxes, since all boxes will look the same - whether they were hand collated or not.

dan89

Personally, I do like to collect Franken boxes as a novelty, and FASC as well with year permitting. Have an 85 Topps rack box with every rack having rookie or major stars unwrapped and on display and a FASC box as well. It is ok to do both. Etiquette, it is what is it or has been described and understand what one is buying.

KendallCat

@grote15 said:
As an unopened collector, the most important thing for me is that all the packs within the box are authentic. FASC is also essentially non existent for anything earlier than 1978 other than 75 mini and 77 wax so as a buyer I just assume any box was likely put together at some point.

Tim

We have discussed this before, and would you say specifics those two years just because we know those exist in case form personally. If you had to guess which years would be possible what would be your best guess. 76 or 74?

blurryface

@nendee said:
This thread is assuming that the cello year in question has no FASC’s available - as Grote15 mentions - when you get older than 78, FASC is basically non existent. All those “wrapped” BBCE boxes are collated.

correct. but the main question posed here is whether or not you should purposely include a star showing pack or not. in knowing the quoted statement above, there should not be purposeful placement whether you feel bad or not. it could easily be seen the other way too.

and while completely different on the legitimacy issue, theres certainly a reason the xmas rack makers put star cards showing. and it wasnt because they felt bad.

if the consensus of the above statement is true, then why risk it? is all im saying.

grote15

@esquiresports said:
I don't think that is what Grote15 is stating. He is saying that pre-1977 sealed cases are not out there, so the boxes cannot be labeled FASC. Many (I would guess most, save for a pack or two here and there) pre-1977 boxes are likely as originally distributed, just lacking the provenance to be FASC.

Correct. Another thing to remember is that the acronym FASC was not used till around 2011 so there are a lot of FASC boxes out there which predate the advent of FASC. I have a 78 wax box that I purchased via a CU group break many years ago that has the old gold BBCE business card but is not labeled FASC as that was not done back then.

grote15

@KendallCat said:

@grote15 said:
As an unopened collector, the most important thing for me is that all the packs within the box are authentic. FASC is also essentially non existent for anything earlier than 1978 other than 75 mini and 77 wax so as a buyer I just assume any box was likely put together at some point.

Tim

We have discussed this before, and would you say specifics those two years just because we know those exist in case form personally. If you had to guess which years would be possible what would be your best guess. 76 or 74?

As we know, the Conlon collection via REA is the main source for many of the 75 mini wax boxes FASC, as Charlie had a lot of cases on hand which his estate liquidated after he passed away. There have been at least a couple of 77 wax case finds over the past few years, too. I wouldn't be shocked if a 76 wax case were to surface at some point, too. It's just that we haven't seen one yet.

GroceryRackPack

@grote15 said:

@esquiresports said:
I don't think that is what Grote15 is stating. He is saying that pre-1977 sealed cases are not out there, so the boxes cannot be labeled FASC. Many (I would guess most, save for a pack or two here and there) pre-1977 boxes are likely as originally distributed, just lacking the provenance to be FASC.

Correct. Another thing to remember is that the acronym FASC was not used till around 2011 so there are a lot of FASC boxes out there which predate the advent of FASC. I have a 78 wax box that I purchased via a CU group break many years ago that has the old gold BBCE business card but is not labeled FASC as that was not done back then.

That's an "Old School Wrap"

gemint

@grote15 said:
as a buyer I just assume any box was likely put together at some point.

This. If you buy a non-FASC box, just assume it was put together. If it's a more modern box (late 70s onward), I assume people open packs until they get the 'hit' card and then leave the rest of the packs sealed. Then they move on to the next box and repeat. Whatever is left gets consolidated into full boxes that have a much lower hit rate of the key card than a non-frankenbox.

nendee

@gemint said:

@grote15 said:
as a buyer I just assume any box was likely put together at some point.

This. If you buy a non-FASC box, just assume it was put together. If it's a more modern box (late 70s onward), I assume people open packs until they get the 'hit' card and then leave the rest of the packs sealed. Then they move on to the next box and repeat. Whatever is left gets consolidated into full boxes that have a much lower hit rate of the key card than a non-frankenbox.

Agreed. The issue is since there is no, if few 1970 - 1977 FASC boxes, we assume ALL those boxes are somewhat frakenboxes. That said, there is no reason to buy a box 1978 and onward that ISN'T FASC, if you are looking for a wrapped box. The question is the pre-77 collector.

ahopkins

@nendee said:

@billwaltonsbeard said:
It's my understanding that if a rack/cello box isn't FASC, BBCE will identify stars showing on the label.

I was thinking that would be a good idea, but I haven’t seen one marked like that. Can someone post an image?

Here's one I just got back. The star pack was placed in the box intentionally along with the other 23 packs. I've never known of any packs that weren't placed in a box unintentionally, stars showing or not.

1954

I love this topic because unopened is something I am really enthusiastic about. I have seen FASC boxes from 1972-73 Basketball and 1975 Topps mini as mentioned above, but I have not seen FASC other than 1977 Topps from the earliest that I can remember. In researching unopened from all the archives of auctions, very few cases have been sold from the 1970s. You still see 1978 Topps fb and baseball pop up here and there. Steve Hart knows what is out there and obviously he keeps this information close to his heart.

blurryface

something else i was thinking about regarding the purposeful placement of a star pack. whether cello or wax, i would rather have the single pack graded rather than place it in a box that cant be seen or even rip it. top and bottom cards usually are not in the greatest condition for a variety of reasons.

with a cello and the card being more visible, i would think one would fetch more by getting the single pack graded vs throwing it in a box. it certainly would display better. and if i were buying a box, i wouldnt want the star card showing. id rather it be buried. and depending on the card, one might open the box, pull the star pack and then replace it w another pack mooting the entire situation anyways.

just speaking in general and not towards any particular box in this thread. every situation is different.

grote15

@blurryface said:
something else i was thinking about regarding the purposeful placement of a star pack. whether cello or wax, i would rather have the single pack graded rather than place it in a box that cant be seen or even rip it. top and bottom cards usually are not in the greatest condition for a variety of reasons.

with a cello and the card being more visible, i would think one would fetch more by getting the single pack graded vs throwing it in a box. it certainly would display better. and if i were buying a box, i wouldnt want the star card showing. id rather it be buried. and depending on the card, one might open the box, pull the star pack and then replace it w another pack mooting the entire situation anyways.

just speaking in general and not towards any particular box in this thread. every situation is different.

That is an interesting discussion and debate. Back in December, a CU forum member consigned two BBCE wrapped boxes of 1979 OPC hockey wax to Heritage for the same auction. One of the boxes had a pack with the Gretzky RC on back, the other did not. A number of people recommended pulling the Gretzky pack and getting it graded separately but in the end the consignor kept the star pack in the box and had Steve label the box as such. The box with the Gretzky pack inside sold for over 250K while the other box sold for less than half that at 114K.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-with-gretzky-rookie-on-back-of-pack-/a/50031-58861.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-gretzky-rookie-year-/a/50031-58446.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

blurryface

@grote15 said:

@blurryface said:
something else i was thinking about regarding the purposeful placement of a star pack. whether cello or wax, i would rather have the single pack graded rather than place it in a box that cant be seen or even rip it. top and bottom cards usually are not in the greatest condition for a variety of reasons.

with a cello and the card being more visible, i would think one would fetch more by getting the single pack graded vs throwing it in a box. it certainly would display better. and if i were buying a box, i wouldnt want the star card showing. id rather it be buried. and depending on the card, one might open the box, pull the star pack and then replace it w another pack mooting the entire situation anyways.

just speaking in general and not towards any particular box in this thread. every situation is different.

That is an interesting discussion and debate. Back in December, a CU forum member consigned two BBCE wrapped boxes of 1979 OPC hockey wax to Heritage for the same auction. One of the boxes had a pack with the Gretzky RC on back, the other did not. A number of people recommended pulling the Gretzky pack and getting it graded separately but in the end the consignor kept the star pack in the box and had Steve label the box as such. The box with the Gretzky pack inside sold for over 250K while the other box sold for less than half that at 114K.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-with-gretzky-rookie-on-back-of-pack-/a/50031-58861.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-gretzky-rookie-year-/a/50031-58446.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

key words i picked up on: “a number of people”. would you have paid that premium? for a back showing wax pack nonetheless? pretty much the worst spot, right? final hammer price make the situation right? rest of the collation? does that gretzky back mean 3 more? plenty of variables to discuss besides a fool and their money, imo.

grote15

@blurryface said:

@grote15 said:

@blurryface said:
something else i was thinking about regarding the purposeful placement of a star pack. whether cello or wax, i would rather have the single pack graded rather than place it in a box that cant be seen or even rip it. top and bottom cards usually are not in the greatest condition for a variety of reasons.

with a cello and the card being more visible, i would think one would fetch more by getting the single pack graded vs throwing it in a box. it certainly would display better. and if i were buying a box, i wouldnt want the star card showing. id rather it be buried. and depending on the card, one might open the box, pull the star pack and then replace it w another pack mooting the entire situation anyways.

just speaking in general and not towards any particular box in this thread. every situation is different.

That is an interesting discussion and debate. Back in December, a CU forum member consigned two BBCE wrapped boxes of 1979 OPC hockey wax to Heritage for the same auction. One of the boxes had a pack with the Gretzky RC on back, the other did not. A number of people recommended pulling the Gretzky pack and getting it graded separately but in the end the consignor kept the star pack in the box and had Steve label the box as such. The box with the Gretzky pack inside sold for over 250K while the other box sold for less than half that at 114K.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-with-gretzky-rookie-on-back-of-pack-/a/50031-58861.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-gretzky-rookie-year-/a/50031-58446.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

key words i picked up on: “a number of people”. would you have paid that premium? for a back showing wax pack nonetheless? pretty much the worst spot, right? final hammer price make the situation right? rest of the collation? does that gretzky back mean 3 more? plenty of variables to discuss besides a fool and their money, imo.

I don't collect hockey, so I would not have, no, and these boxes are way beyond my price range in any case, lol. But it is an interesting case study with regard to the premium star packs carry within the box.

blurryface

@grote15 said:

@blurryface said:

@grote15 said:

@blurryface said:
something else i was thinking about regarding the purposeful placement of a star pack. whether cello or wax, i would rather have the single pack graded rather than place it in a box that cant be seen or even rip it. top and bottom cards usually are not in the greatest condition for a variety of reasons.

with a cello and the card being more visible, i would think one would fetch more by getting the single pack graded vs throwing it in a box. it certainly would display better. and if i were buying a box, i wouldnt want the star card showing. id rather it be buried. and depending on the card, one might open the box, pull the star pack and then replace it w another pack mooting the entire situation anyways.

just speaking in general and not towards any particular box in this thread. every situation is different.

That is an interesting discussion and debate. Back in December, a CU forum member consigned two BBCE wrapped boxes of 1979 OPC hockey wax to Heritage for the same auction. One of the boxes had a pack with the Gretzky RC on back, the other did not. A number of people recommended pulling the Gretzky pack and getting it graded separately but in the end the consignor kept the star pack in the box and had Steve label the box as such. The box with the Gretzky pack inside sold for over 250K while the other box sold for less than half that at 114K.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-with-gretzky-rookie-on-back-of-pack-/a/50031-58861.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

https://sports.ha.com/itm/hockey/1979-80-o-pee-chee-hockey-wax-box-with-48-unopened-packs-gretzky-rookie-year-/a/50031-58446.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

key words i picked up on: “a number of people”. would you have paid that premium? for a back showing wax pack nonetheless? pretty much the worst spot, right? final hammer price make the situation right? rest of the collation? does that gretzky back mean 3 more? plenty of variables to discuss besides a fool and their money, imo.

I don't collect hockey, so I would not have, no, and these boxes are way beyond my price range in any case, lol. But it is an interesting case study with regard to the premium star packs carry within the box.

whats the case we are studying though? final hammer or the ethical practice? the year, sport & star are all interchangeable really. i agree, it is interesting. and while i tend to think this falls closely in line with baiting, i also think there is no real right answer. theres all sorts of these intricate & ethical hobby dilemmas out there. take the guy who had issues w his pwcc listing the other day (even though there wasnt one really). but what if they actually misspelled/left out pertinent info his listing? or probstein. crap pic, zero description and wrong title? is one not supposed to bid to ensure it doesnt get sold for pennies on the dollar? i mean, technically its shilling right? or is it? whats the ethical thing to do there? heck, what about safety bidding? what about knowing sequences, pulling key cards then selling the rest of the box? the list goes on & on. i will say though, that that was an unimaginable difference between box prices on the 79 opc. i dont know if i should be ecstatic for the seller or remorseful for the buyer. but being remorseful for the buyer takes nothing away from being happy for the seller either. caveat emptor for sure.

grote15

You can also look at this example from two different perspectives~whether the star pack was added to the box to enhance its value or whether the star pack is original to the box and was not "cherrypicked." No way to know for certain which is the case as the box is not FASC but my guess is the latter which imo is reflected by the hammer price.