Options
Good/Bad coin dealers/sellers?
Herb_T
Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is there a running list of good or bad coin dealers on the forum somewhere? My wife bought a $2.50 and $5.00 gold coins from a dealer via the mail and received all $2.50 coins and when she sent her coins into PCGS one came back as counterfeit and another couldn’t be verified.
She has written the dealer who initially asked for photos of the coins she had received, but now she is being “ghost” by the seller.
Be nice if there was a list that people could check prior to parting with hard earned money. I should add that she had purchased before from the seller and had no problems. They also want to be paid by check, no credit cards.
Thoughts?
0
Comments
Sounds as if the dealer unloaded junk... If no further response, out the dealer so others do not get burned. Cheers, RickO
Being paid by check eliminates up to 3% processing fee which might be the lions share of a Dealers profit.
As a member who's as hard on Dealers as any I can assure you there's no "list" as such that I'm aware of. There are any number of great Dealers who practice good ethics and helpful business practices but they are just named in different ways in a variety of posts.
There are very few "bad" Dealers. Typically they don't last long. Since they are dealing with "money" they have to be careful. I'm sure your wife will get some consideration once she submits what's requested. No guarantees but that's been my experience.
Sorry about you experience.
I’d think a posted and maintained list of good dealers would be ok, but I can imagine legal issues for anyone publicly posting a list of bad dealers....
A few more points....generally buying certified coins is a good way to ensure its not counterfeit.
Dealing with PNG dealers generally assures ethical treatment.
Also there are instances of good dealers going bad. I’d be very careful consigning coins and selling coins 30 days Net with a handshake, but the pros do this all the time.
Sorry for your experience.
Legally, the buyer of a counterfeit coin has the right to a refund. I suggest that you/your wife let the seller know you’re aware of that and be pleasant, but firm in demanding it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A list would be unfair, as one person's opinion might damage someone for no true reason. Same for good or bad. But if you name a dealer you are thinking of doing business with and ask if anyone here has had successful dealings with that would benefit you better than a list by unknown entities. It happens all the time on the forum and has benefitted many people.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Over the last few years, I have seen a couple threads started discussing good dealers.
There are ANA and PNG dealer lists.
A list of negative dealers would create the potential for a lawsuit.
A few general suggestions:
1) Buy only PCGS and NGC only until you learn to grade, authenticate, and identify problem coins on your own.
2) CAC is always nice as long as the price paid is proportional to the quality of the coin. It will increase liquidity.
3) When buying online, always use a credit card until you have built relationships with quality dealers. If they refuse, walk away.
4) Trust no one. Everything a seller tells you should be considered a lie until proven otherwise.
In your case, call the U.S. Secret Service and your local police. Tell them that someone fraudulently sold you counterfeit coins which failed professional independent authentication and the seller will not make it right. They may take some interest, they may not. If they don’t consider a lawsuit for fraud in small claims court with requests for punitive damages. You will need to be able to do this on your own since a lawyer would eat up recovery and depending on the jurisdiction you’re not necessarily guaranteed your attorney’s fees.
I'm a little confused as to why your wife sent in the coins to PCGS when she hadn't even received the correct coins in the first place.
I don't want to appear to be defending the dealer, but there must have been a 2-3 month lag between receipt of the coins and the results from PCGS.
This is a good example of why it's a good idea to buy gold coins that have been slabbed by one of the major grading services.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
As others have said, buying PCGS/CAC certified coins, and dealing with PNG member dealers will likely eliminate 99.9% of any issues. Buying raw from an unknown dealer.......=scary.
Why did you buy raw gold coins and then send them in to PCGS when you could have just bought gold coins that had already been slabbed and save yourself all these problems?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I can’t say that at all. Some of the most flagrant violators of the PNG Code of Ethics IMHO are long time PNG Dealers.
The people who skirt the rules are often the ones who know them best and are hiding in plain sight. Access and opportunity to fraud is more critical than low morality for the actual act.
This reality transcends the Coin Hobby and can be found in every transaction in life.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
The fake PCGS slabs are getting pretty good also.
Even the micro printing on the gold shield logo is improving.
The only way to be sure is to compare the TrueView with the actual coin.
(Unless you are an advanced collector)
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/two-counterfeit-coins-in-counterfeit-pcgs-holders.362922/
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/beware-of-ebay-seller-selling-china-fakes.316503/
My Saint Set
If the coin is counterfeit, legally the seller is liable for a full refund, regardless of the time lapse. Your responsibility is
to prove that that this particular coin is the one that was sold to you. Any legitimate coin dealer would offer a full refund under these conditions.
PCGS should True View every pre 1965 coin worth more than $500 to combat this, but then again that could prove to be overwhelming.
Anyone can call themselves a coin dealer. Coin dealers are not regulated in any way in most places. Are you sure the seller was a dealer or just someone selling off some coins? Purchasing raw gold coins off a website is very risky. Pay the extra premium for slabbed coins. Can you provide photos of these coins to help others, like me, to help identify counterfeits? Also, returning raw coins is difficult sometimes. All the seller has to do is say "It is not the same coin" (another reason to only buy slabbed coins) and you may have to prove that it is the same coin. Not to defend the dealer involved, but even a lot of dealers cannot tell if some gold coins are real or fake. Any reputable dealer(person)
would take them back without question. Even reputable dealers can make mistakes, though.
Pulled this thread from a search to post a thought about coin dealers. You know, a lot of small businesses, among them coin dealers, have greatly suffered the last year or so. I needed some cash and was musing about how to sell, and I decided to support my local (reputable) coin dealer instead of having a giant corp make the profits. If you want to have some fun and make a dealers day, take in some nice, market hot coins that will be sure to move, mark them down 30% from retail and they should be happy. Also, throw them a curve ball, bring in some coins for a straight trade, and let them pick what to give you. Unless you're saving for relatives, heirlooms, etc., it's kinda cathartic, and personally, it will make you grow as a collector.
Enjoy numismatics, one of the few fields where you can meet national level dealers, and have fun realizing that most will treat you without much of a facade, most are pretty cool. But please do your due diligence before you do business
I try to support local businesses within reason, but I have my limits. If I can sell a coin for $500 on GC I’m not going to sell it to a local dealer for $350.
Trafficking counterfeit coins is a Federal offense. Contact the Secret Service, along with the local Police Department. They’ve been know to handle counterfeit traffickers.
That's painting with a very broad brush and I'll leave it at that
100 PERCENT CORRECT
I recently cherry picked a coin off a PNG dealers website. The transaction was processed on my credit card and tracking provided. The dealer was tipped off by several people and the forum.
The dealer refused to mail the coin and tried to buy me for $500.
I was the better man and offered to split the difference and pay 5k for the coin
The png dealer refused to give me the coin I paid for and he advertised for $49.
I saw him at a show over the weekend. He was quick to leave the dealers table when I introduced myself.
Png was quick to side with there member. ANA Staff was appalled by the PNG’s dealers actions. They wanted me to fill out the paperwork for an arbitration. But I would have to drop my lawsuit against the dealer. After about two weeks I got an call from the png saying they got there initial decision wrong and would allow me to take it to arbitration. The png called and the dealer denied that I ever offered 5k for the coin. But wouldn’t take it when the png called.
So it will be a long drawn out case when the png dealer could have easily made 5k.
Instead he Decided to break the code of ethics.
So not all PNG dealers are good! Made me second Guess the PNG also.
The ANA was totally willing to help the collector.
Please PM me the name of this dealer. Thanks.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Now ya gotta tell us what coin was sold for $49 that is a $10,000 coin. I have some ideas!
It was a thread that someone started on 4/21 when I bought the coin. It was taken down after the damage was done.
I’m not going to say the dealers name or company. I’m more than happy to discuss it in person at a show.
After the smoke clears I will be happy to post the details.
A poor decision that the dealer has made. He had all the chances to make it right. Even when the Bob from the PNG called him.
Thanks for the pm’s everyone.
Once the litigation is settled I will share my experience.
Thanks
A dealer offered a coin for $49, then changed his mind and decided not to sell it for $49? Even if the law is technically on the buyer’s side that sounds like a pretty flimsy basis for a lawsuit.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
That’s why your not an attorney.
I have the advertisement from the dealers website. I have a receipt emailed from the dealer. I have a credit card statement showing the transaction. It’s called a bill of sale.
Rather surprised with the dealers actions. I guess he’s not worried about his reputation. But sure left the table very quickly on Friday. After all the business I’ve done with him over the years. If the ANA and PNG (now)will allow me to take it to arbitration what’s that tell you.
He agreed with himself not to sell it
A collector calls to ensure the coin is indeed in stock and available for purchase. The dealer goes and gets the coin and confirms yes it is in stock and is looking at it as they speak…. Collector then gives all his personal information including credit card information in order to purchase the coin. The PNG dealer goes ahead and charges the collectors credit card and then provides a tracking number to the collector. Sounds like a done deal in my book. Especially when doing business online only during Covid. What do you think?
Dealer gets tipped off by another dealer about the cherry-pick after someone on these boards saw the coin had sold on the new purchase list and started a thread…. Then the dealer cancels the shipment. Is that fair? That’s BS! The dealer made his money from the initial transaction from the original owner (whatever his built in profit margin is). Collector offers to split it with him and says he will send him a check for 5k. PNG dealer says no and offers to pay the collector 500 bucks (don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining) take it or leave it.
If the dealer was not in the wrong why would he offer $500 to collector? It certainly was not because he wanted to go back to the original owner to tell him he feels he now owes them 10k for his coin. What a dumb move by the dealer. Now he can pay his lawyer to battle it out . Now he can deal with the fallout of his actions. The PNG knows about it, ANA is well aware of it and so are tons of dealers and collectors. Have yet to hear from anyone that believes the dealer did the right thing. What’s sickening is seeing this dealer listed as one of the most influential a few weeks later in the coin world article.
I think @savitale is not making the point that the seller SHOULD have canceled the sale. But the seller may well have the right to cancel a sale for virtually no reason. I imagine it depends on state law. However I'm pretty sure that laws allow a vendor to cancel a transaction. The U.S. Mint does it all the time, for example. I had an Amazon seller cancel an order once and refund my money. I'm not sure what the individual state laws are on these things, but if the buyer is "made whole" on his purchase, I'm not sure the courts will compel a sale.
The real scumbag here is the loser that ratted on you.