Disappointing News From PCGS
USMC
Posts: 329 ✭✭✭✭
It seems that a $20 US gold coin I have had in the safe deposit
box at the bank for almost 50 years turns out to be counterfeit.
(see attached from PCGS) Were these coins gold - if so, are they
worth scrap gold price?
What does the PGCS#9033 mean?
Thanks for the help - Appreciated
Al Varelas / USMC
Vietnam Veteran
1
Comments
Assuming it’s made of gold, yes.
Many of the older fakes, like your 50 year old specimen, were made of gold. So you would have intrinsic value going for you.
That sucks. Sorry Devildog
We have no idea if the counterfeit is gold or not, and even if it is we don't know the purity, but if it does contain gold then it is worth at least approximately its bullion value. A local dealer might be able to help you by using a Sigma machine or something similar.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
If it's genuine gold, it is (slightly) possible your counterfeit may have more value to a collector of contemporary counterfeits than a genuine (generic) 1898 $20. would. Keep the insert (obviously).
Please post photos upon its return. I am curious how close it looks to a genuine coin.
peacockcoins
Your counterfeit double eagle most likely has .9675 Troy ounces of gold. Most counterfeit US gold coins made since the 1950's are made of gold meeting mint specifications for weight and fineness. The counterfeiters profit came from the numismatic premium these coins carried. I'd like to see some good pics of this coin for educational purposes.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sorry about your results.
Each coin date in each series has a PCGS number assigned to it and 9033 is the one for1898 $20’s.
Many counterfeit gold coins are made of gold and there’s a pretty good chance that yours will still be worth close to melt value. Many jewelers and coin dealers will be able to tell you the coin’s composition if you show it to them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What does the PCGS# 9033 mean?
Al / USMC
Good thing is, most of the fakes are gold, some come in a little less pure than 21.4k, but with gold at current levels , Id scrap it for the gold content and find a real /already graded one.
See the post just above yours.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Where are you located? I’ll see if I can find a brick and mortar store near you who would buy the n/g $20 from you as scrap.
>
Link to PCGS Coin #9033.
What years are the Omega counterfeits known?
If the omegas were all placed in the same place, perhaps someone could provide a pic of the omega and location.
Sorry to hear that, my friend. Upset Stomach, news.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.That's sad. I hope it is gold.
Well, at any rate, there isn't really that much of a spread between a mid grade twenty and bullion value. Assuming it's wasn't a high grade, of course.
If you've had it for 50 years then presumably (?) you held it as bullion. Well, its presumably still bullion. It is a mid century counterfeit made to deceive. It's almost collectable in it's own right.
thebeav: The coin is in almost new condition ....
JBK: It was given to me by my grandfather ....
I sent it in so if anything happen to me, my wife
would know what it was, and approx. worth .....
I understand there are collectors of counterfeit coins,
is there a thread for that?
Thanks for all the input - appreciated
Al / USMC
Vietnam Veteran
Any 1898 $20 struck in gold that looks good enough to fool any real collectors is going to be scrap metal. It's ony the cool and crude pieces struck from handmade dies that have significant collector value.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That sucks! 20 years ago I bought my first gold coins (on eBay, when it was reasonably safe). Three were notable. One was a $5 1913 that had a "grade" from AGC. It's probably worth more than I paid for it right now. Another was a $2.50 Indian that turned out to be counterfeit. It's in the safe deposit box with all of the genuine coins. The dealer at Long Beach told me it was 90% gold, so its melt value is probably close to what I paid. I keep thinking about getting a bezel and making it into a necklace for someone.
That is certainly a very worthy intention.
There is one grading service (ANACS ?) that has a special label for counterfeit coins. In theory you could have it tested for purity and then have it slabbed as a counterfeit.
Some others, of course, would just scrap it.
If it were me and it had any sentimental value at all, I'd test it and slab it.
Henning nickels...micro O Morgan dollars...those Omega gold coins (that I don't know much about)....
How about a picture of that old counterfeit?
I don't agree.
Just look at the Omega Double Eagle. There's good collector interest for those.
Send it to NGC for a 2nd opinion if you have doubts.
NGC thinks these 24, 26 & 27 saints are fake. They look real to me.
https://www.ngccoin.com/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/
My Saint Set
Why, would he have any reasonable doubt regarding PCGS's determination that the coin is counterfeit? It would be a waste of money to submit it to NGC. And speaking of NGC, I'll go with their sight seen conclusion on the coins you linked, but thanks for sharing your esteemed opinion.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ouch.
I will say that there's not a lot of point in paying for an opinion that you don't respect.
I don't know...Maybe he's an expert on Liberty double eagles.
Possibly.
Rather than an in depth discussion on the split collar manufacturing process?
You are welcome.
My Saint Set
Try to make the best of a bad situation ... that's all you can do.
Wow... What a disappointment. Please provide pictures when it comes back.... Perhaps some of the experts here can identify details that will help others. Cheers, RickO
Personally I'd be stoked if a generic $20 I owned turned out to be a contemporary counterfeit of correct weight and fineness.
People do respect grades, once it fits. There is the following popular forum saying after all:
If the grade doesn’t fit, you must resubmit
That being said, disagreeing with a counterfeit designation is different that disagreeing with a grade.
I’d get it checked out with an XRF gun and see if ICG would slab it with the gold content weight.
Given the price of gold today, if the coin is gold, the coin is still ahead.
I don't know why someone would counterfeit a contemporary 1898 double eagle at correct weight and fineness since these pieces had essentially $20 face value gold in them at the time of issue.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Agree. I’ve heard the coins with gold were done in the Middle East with Lebanon being mentioned.
Agreed.
I never did like that word " IF " especially in this case.
It's not us- it might be ICG or SEGS. They use a yellow and red label if I remember correctly- it's been a while since I've seen one.
You know some counterfeit are worth more then the real thing. See if it has two initials in the feet are where the clause are.
Hoard the keys.
They were't usually counterfeited at correct weight and fineness at the time of issue (1898). But through most of the 20th century there was a numismatic premium associated with them and so the Lebanon fakes and the Omega fakes, to name a couple, were made with the correct weight and fineness.
Oh and if you know some one with a Niton gun they can give you the percentage of gold in it. A scrap yard will have one if you know some one at a scrap yard. Some time you can call and they will help you out.
Hoard the keys.
Me, too!!
True enough. Those are good exceptions to the rule. What I should have said is that "For a counterfeit 1898 $20 to have significant collector value, it would need to be struck by at least somewhat crudely executed handmade dies, and not by any sort of transfer or casting process."
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I thought that certain years were common like 1903, during the early 70s when it was legal to own US numismatic gold but not some other coins creating an incentive to smuggle into the country fake $20 Libs with the same gold content.
I was fleeced at a coin show by a slick guy in 1997. I was showing a $20 Lib to a dealer at a table and another "customer" flashes a mark free 1903 $20 at me offering it for sale as if it was much better. Against show rules but no one called him on it. I ended up buying it outside the bourse, and it turned out to be fake. Some years later when I was set up as a dealer at a show, a vest pocket guy looted me of that gold coin and a couple other 1 oz. coins.
Reading that NGC link above, there were a lot of gold counterfeits minted in the mid 20th Century when it was illegal to own bullion, but not numismatic gold. I have a fake quarter eagle that I got on ebay around 2002.
Sorry to hear about that. I probably have a few buried in my collection. I know of one only. A silver WL.
100% Positive BST transactions
Back in the early 1970's I ordered 20 gold coins from a dealer's ad in the CDN. They were 5 each of $2 1/2 Liberty, $2 1/2 Indian, $5 Liberty and $5 Indian. I showed them to a local dealer. He thought that most if not all were bad. He said to turn them over to the Secret Service which I did. After many months it was determined that only the 5 $5 Liberties were genuine. I got my money back from the dealer. He never advertised gold coins again in the CDN. I believe the Secret Service put a lot of heat on him.
I don't know their process but I'm wondering if PCGS and/or NGC test counterfeits they receive with a XRF analyzer or similar tool to check the make up of the counterfeits they identify. That would be a help to any customer that finds out a coin they submit is a fake.
Well, I figured I'd buy a gold bezel and make a pendant out of it. Still haven't done that. But with gold at about $2000/oz, my fake is worth about $250, so I think I'm in the money for about $100.
Around the same time I got that counterfeit, I got a raw 1909 half eagle for $170. It graded at MS-63.