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Unique Wilson Dollar in Brass

ZoinsZoins Posts: 28,641 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited May 1, 2021 9:42PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I've been following Wilson Dollars for a while and just ran across this unique specimen in brass.

Looks amazing. I'm sorry I missed it in 2015!

1920 Wilson Dollar - Brass - So-Called Dollar - HK-450 var. - NGC PF66 0/1/0 - Ex. Abe Kosoff, Anthony Swiatek

Heritage wrote:

The present coin seems to be a unique prototype for the Wilson dollar, struck in brass, before the engraver's initial was added to the die, reminiscent of the 1915 No S Panama-Pacific half dollar patterns. We have found no auction appearance or other listing for this piece in the literature. John Ray Sinnock, who would later serve as chief engraver and was the designer of the Roosevelt dime and Franklin half dollar, was assisting Morgan at the Mint, beginning in 1918. Although no specific evidence has come to light, it is possible that this piece was part of his collection, which was kept intact and only distributed many years later. Anthony Swiatek acquired this piece from Abe Kosoff in the 1970s.

Ref: https://coins.ha.com/itm/so-called-dollars/tokens-and-medals/1920-wilson-dollar-no-m-brass-pr66-ngc-hk-450-variant/a/1216-6653.s?

Comments

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zoins- Do you know about this one?

    1920 Wilson$ Manila Mint Opening Matte Presentation Piece (Proof)
    Pcgs Coin #809220

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 28,641 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2021 11:35PM

    @wondercoin said:
    Zoins- Do you know about this one?

    1920 Wilson$ Manila Mint Opening Matte Presentation Piece (Proof)
    Pcgs Coin #809220

    Wondercoin

    I don't but it looks like the PCGS Coin Number may be 800220?

    It's graded PCGS PR65 so it may be this one after it was crossed.

    This seems to be the CoinFacts page with PCGS Coin Number in the URL:

    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1920-wilson-manila-mint-opening-matte-presentation-piece/800220

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Zoins. Thanks for correcting my typo on the PCGS coin number.

    I believe the Presentation piece is not the brass coin. I believe it was owned by “Justhavingfun” well before that brass coin was ever offered by Heritage. I don’t have my notes in front of me as I am out of the country at the moment, but I believe the presentation piece could be the single coin that Speaker Osmeña of the House of Representatives struck to commemorate the medals at the opening ceremony on July 15, 1920.

    I was hoping you might have some research handy on the Presentation piece for the Manila Mint opening ceremony.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 28,641 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin I don't have ay information on the piece right now but I will keep look for it. Thanks for bringing it up.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 5,814 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very enlightening, thanks. Peace Roy

    Positivity with endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, Ricko, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins JimTyler, USMarine6 and others.

  • rickoricko Posts: 85,394 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice SCD and in amazing condition. Cheers, RickO

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 12,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • LindySLindyS Posts: 405 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2021 1:14AM

    Daniel Carr Silver 2020 version
    Double dated double struck using authentic 100 year old Wilson obverse die

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LindyS said:
    Daniel Carr Silver 2020 version
    Double dated double struck with authentic 100 year old Wilson obverse die

    Why spoil a serious thread with this c..p?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 28,641 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2021 5:26PM

    @pruebas said:

    @LindyS said:
    Daniel Carr Silver 2020 version
    Double dated double struck with authentic 100 year old Wilson obverse die

    Why spoil a serious thread with this c..p?

    Why do you think this is "c..p"?

    While not a part of the original thread, this seems kind of harsh.

    For me, the language is a bit of a spoiler as well as I'm here to have fun.

    Please post something constructive and review PCGS Forum rules:

    Be kind to each other, and happy collecting.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 28,641 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2021 7:26AM

    1920 Wilson Dollar - Silver - HK-449 - PCGS MS65 POP 61/5/1 NGC POP 164/11/0 - Ex. Maurice Storck

    Wow! A common silver piece but a nice one and a super price at $9,600!

    The pop is a bit misleading because it's cataloged as two different PCGS coin numbers:

    • Coin Number: 600411
    • Description: 1920 Medal X#11 Wilson Silver
    • POP: 10/1/0

    Also cataloged as:

    • Coin Number: 643969
    • Description: 1920 Wilson$ HK-449 Silver Manila Mint Opening
    • POP: 51/4/1

    So for a total pop of: 61/5/1

  • kruegerkrueger Posts: 579 ✭✭✭

    I need to dig my research out, but I believe a well known Luminary in our world ( protecting his name)
    owns a Proof copper specimen.
    There are also silver plated coppers and Gold plated coppers (vermeil). I have one of each.
    I have also seen several what I believe to be brown coppers with what appears to be a bring orangish copper wash on them to brighten them up to look unc. This is only my theory, they did look unusual though.
    These appeared the on the bourse floors for a very short time in the 80's at $ 200 each in a sized blue and white square box. I Looked at them but they were more than my budget then .
    They came out of the Post auction Beebe warehouse sale.
    I was told by an old time Numismatic/ coin Column expert that A. Beebe would not do such plating. I agreed
    Probably not. Later more research revealed in old Beebe Numismatist ads the he was buying such and offering them for sale.
    Where they came from no one knows. lots of things have been done with Philippine coins in the Philippines.

    Have never seen the Blue and white boxes again in all these years.

    Krueger.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @krueger said:
    I need to dig my research out, but I believe a well known Luminary in our world ( protecting his name)
    owns a Proof copper specimen.
    There are also silver plated coppers and Gold plated coppers (vermeil). I have one of each.

    If this is in fact true (and I don't doubt you, but I have never seen either myself), then it could be that any number of silver-plated copper specimens could very well be sitting in holders as silver specimens today. I don't think the services weigh each and every one submitted for grading.

    But I don't think there are any mint records of any plated specimens being minted. Perhaps plated after striking?

    I have also seen several what I believe to be brown coppers with what appears to be a bring orangish copper wash on them to brighten them up to look unc. This is only my theory, they did look unusual though.

    A rinse in MS70 solution might cause this.

    These appeared the on the bourse floors for a very short time in the 80's at $ 200 each in a sized blue and white square box. I Looked at them but they were more than my budget then .
    They came out of the Post auction Beebe warehouse sale.
    I was told by an old time Numismatic/ coin Column expert that A. Beebe would not do such plating. I agreed
    Probably not. Later more research revealed in old Beebe Numismatist ads the he was buying such and offering them for sale.
    Where they came from no one knows. lots of things have been done with Philippine coins in the Philippines.

    Have never seen the Blue and white boxes again in all these years.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    “Proof copper specimen”.

    The Presentation piece?

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • kruegerkrueger Posts: 579 ✭✭✭

    STACKSBOWERS "US GOLD AUCTION CATALOG" DEC. 5 1996

  • kruegerkrueger Posts: 579 ✭✭✭

    Also see NGC article post:

    "The 1920 Wilson Dollar: A counterfeited Rarity"

    Posted 3/12/2019

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 28,641 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @krueger said:

    STACKSBOWERS "US GOLD AUCTION CATALOG" DEC. 5 1996

    Great info @krueger!

    That’s a really interesting specimen.

    I’ve never heard of the Basso reference before and will have to look it up.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 28,641 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2021 5:50AM

    @krueger said:
    Also see NGC article post:

    "The 1920 Wilson Dollar: A counterfeited Rarity"

    Posted 3/12/2019

    Thanks for the mention.

    Here's the article:

    https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/7240/

    The article is quite long, but the part on counterfeits is actually pretty short:

    NGC wrote:

    Because these medals are quite scarce, and nice copper specimens sell for as much as silver ones, counterfeits of copper specimens are somewhat common. Many of these are poorly cast, and exhibit heavy pitting on the surfaces, as well as significant loss of fine details. These poorly executed counterfeits are made from lead, with an outer layer of copper. It is important not to confuse medals corroded from saltwater with those that are cast counterfeits.

  • DrDarrylDrDarryl Posts: 360 ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    I’ve never heard of the Basso reference before and will have to look it up.

    128 and 128a, Coins, Medals and Tokens of the Philippines, by Aldo P. Basso, Chenby Publishers, 1968

    148 and 148a, Coins, Medals and Tokens of the Philippines 1728 - 1974, Second Edition, by Aldo P. Basso, Bookman Printing House, 1975

  • DrDarrylDrDarryl Posts: 360 ✭✭✭✭

    The Mint of the Philippines, by Gilbert Perez, 1921, The American Numismatic Society,
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000000120609&view=2up&seq=1&skin=2021

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2021 6:09AM

    I was curious as to why only 2,200 silvers were struck of this medal, and yet they still had a bunch to dump in the sea 24 years later during the war?

    The article on the Mint provided by @DrDarryl indicated the new Mint there was quite modern at the time and could strike thousands of coins a day. I see quite a few other silver medals were minted during that timeframe.

    Were these remaining 1920 opening medals deliberately left in a corner of the safe somewhere during that time, or did they ever try to sell them for collectables?

    Edited after more reading: The article posted in the above link states they dumped the "unsold surplus of medals" so this seems to imply that they were trying to sell them as collectables over that long timeframe.

    In lot #2928 medal referenced above it indicates the silver one for sale was 38.2 mm and 28.57 grams. The Morgan dollar was 38.1mm and 26.73 grams. The variance in weight is more than I expected would be typical.

    National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/195526

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