4 Major St. Gaudens $20 Types Instead of just 3?: 46 and 48 Star With Motto

brianc1959

Forgive me if this has been done to death, but I tried a quick search and found nothing. Many of the type sets in the Registry include three St. Gaudens $20's: 1) High Relief 1907; 2) No Motto; 3) With Motto. But in 1912 New Mexico and Arizona were added as states, so the number of stars on the obverse went from 46 to 48. Its a pretty obvious change, as the added stars were just glopped onto the lower right obvserse, apparently without re-spacing any of the existing stars. So shouldn't there be two major With Motto types, one with 46 stars and one with 48? I've yet to see a type set that includes this distinction.

cmerlo1

It might be more significant if both types exist for 1912, and one is rarer than the other.

ReadyFireAim

Also look at the 1908 No Motto coins.
There are "1907 obverse" coins mixed in with the "Barber obverse" coins. No distinction is made on the insert even though they both have the "blind eagle" on the back.

(1908 Motto coins all have the new reverse AND obverse w/ petite Liberty & eagle w/ pupils)

csdot

(1) Ultra High Relief 1907;
(2) High Relief Wire Edge 1907;
(3) High Relief Flat Edge 1907;
(4) No Motto 1907/1908;
(5) 1908 - 1933 Motto;
(6) Proof versions;
(7) Possibly add the one you identified, distinguishing between 46/48 stars.

CaptHenway

Precedent. Look at the various early gold and silver type coins, where the star counts varied as states joined the Union. Those are not recognized as types.

PerryHall

The Indian gold $10 also went from 46 stars on the edge to 48 stars on the edge in 1912.

WinLoseWin

@brianc1959 said:
...3) With Motto. But in 1912 New Mexico and Arizona were added as states, so the number of stars on the obverse went from 46 to 48. Its a pretty obvious change, as the added stars were just glopped onto the lower right obvserse, apparently without re-spacing any of the existing stars...

I'm sure I heard of it, but thought it was on the edge like the $10 Eagle. Didn't remember it being on the front.

It's pretty obvious when in a side by side comparison.

I could see the case being made for it. Out of historical habit probably only scattered individuals will collect them that way though.
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ricko

I would identify that as evolution of the coin (due to national growth) rather than a variety. Cheers, RickO

LanceNewmanOCC

what the others does make sense but there are coins out there with varied star counts recognized as varieties. fwiw

CaptHenway

Pop quiz!
What state was recognized by a star on a U.S. coin the year before it became a state?

PerryHall

@CaptHenway said:
Pop quiz!
What state was recognized by a star on a U.S. coin the year before it became a state?

Vermont

yosclimber

There are many ways to define types.
You could define it as every time the hub changes.
Some hub changes are rather minor and not easy to see, though.

CaptHenway

@PerryHall said:

@CaptHenway said:
Pop quiz!
What state was recognized by a star on a U.S. coin the year before it became a state?

Vermont

Nope. Michigan, the 26th star on the reverse of the 1836 Gobrecht Dollar. Michigan's becoming a state was held up due to the Toledo War.

PerryHall

@CaptHenway I said Vermont because they issued a coin with the legend "Quarta Decima Stella" which is Latin for "14th Star" in anticipation of becoming the 14th state which occurred in 1791.