Is Sandy Koufax the greatest pitcher of all time?
doubledragon
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Is he the best that ever did it?
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doubledragon
Posts: 23,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Been discussed WAY to often and the answer is still no, he's not.
During a period of 4 or 5 seasons ( maybe just 3) I would say yes. But.....I was a Dodger fan then and young so that probably figures into my view of it. Best pitcher of all time over an extended career? Who knows? Not me.
You may very well be correct. But.....why do you think the topic has "Been discussed WAY to often?" Something obviously keeps the topic going. Whenever I've been around people discussing who the all time greatest pitcher is, Koufax ALWAYS comes up. ALWAYS! I think for anyone who has actually watched baseball for over a 60+ year period, Koufax is really their first pick but other things come into play. Like fan loyalty, personal favorite player, etc. Basically, I guess you had to be there. He was magnificent. I've never seen better.
And....when I was a kid and listened to older people who had watched baseball from the 1920's and earlier, Koufax was their choice as best ever. The only others in the running always seemed to be either Walter Johnson or Christy Mathewson. Who knows?
Whenever I hear the subject come up, Koufax's name is always mentioned as well. It's a fascinating subject. I hear other names like, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Greg Maddux, Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan, there names come up as well, but a lot of people think Koufax was the best.
I know a lot of people don't like Pete Rose, but he has some great baseball stories. Listen to what he said about Sandy Koufax.
Koufax.
End of thread.
Walter Johnson has my vote with the 21 seasons, 417 wins, 110 shutouts, and 2.17 era.
For 4 or 5 years, Koufax was the best of the best
Please don't make me close the thread this early Steve, please? You know I have nothing else to do, the ebay auction I'm involved in doesn't end for another six days, and this is all I have. I could watch reruns of "The Golden Girls", but it just doesn't interest me at the moment.
Okay, only because i wanna see ya win that auction.
Oh, I'll win. I'll fight for my beloved cards! Thank you Steve, because it's either this or....
Sandy Koufax in Dodger Stadium was the best ever. Sandy elsewhere...not so much.
Just make sure when ya win the auction, to post here a pic that PSA 10 Joe Louis rookie card so the rest of us can drool.
Not even the best lefty. Compare his stats to Lefty Grove and you’ll find what you’re looking for.
I'll go with Cy Young and his 511 wins. I understand it was a dead ball era then and guys pitched almost every day but 511 wins is just an astronomical number that will never even come close to being surpassed.
Young pitched the second half of his career in the deadball era, but the 1890's were as run-happy as the 1990's. If you look at Young's ERA in those years, keep that in mind. Young was an outstanding pitcher, and a legitimate GOAT candidate.
With regard to Koufax, in the very short time that he was great Juan Marichal actually had a better ERA in road games than Koufax did. Koufax was the GOAT pitching in Dodger Stadium; he's nowhere near the conversation anywhere else.
Koufax is top ten, maybe top 5. It arguable that he’s not even the greatest Dodger of all time (Kershaw). But the greatest pitcher of the modern era is Randy Johnson.
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Excellent post.
Koufax had ONE great season and four great seasons pitching in Dodger Stadium, how one single person realistically thinks he's an all time great is beyond me.
The only reason to respond to this post was to acknowledge dallas' comment on Juan Marichal, who was a MUCH better pitcher than Koufax.
Marichal was pretty handy with the bat when he faced the Dodgers..
That was bad, did you know that the Dodger catcher nearly hit him in the head with the ball throwing it back to Koufax, who was refusing to throw at Giants hitters? Very intense game between two bitter rivals.
No excuse for clobbering Roseboro, but there's more to the story.
Hey, we got Koufax in the discussion!
Well I'm just glad that we all agree that Koufax is the greatest pitcher.
It's very rare, in fact this may be the first time ever that everyone agrees, and I'm so happy to see it.
Sorry Steve, If George Bretts' 1980 season isn't in the discussion for greatest season by a third basemen in
history, then Koufax isn't the greatest pitcher of all time for the same reason.......... not enough games played.
After all, we can't have one set of rules for Brett and another set of rules for Koufax, baseball just doesn't work that way.
The correct answer is Tom Seaver.
Johnson and Mathewson and Cy Young are eliminated because they pitched to 1890s' - 1920s' slow white guys,
me in other words. Of course they're going to dominate them, and me. Seaver pitched to the best baseball players
in the world, and dominated them. Matt Harvey pretended to be the dark knight of Gotham for a couple years
but Seaver was the original and best............................
Koufax in a nutshell. It's 1965. Dodgers against Reds at Crosley Field. Maury Wills leads off for the Dodgers. He draws a walk. He steals second. He takes third on a sacrifice grounder to second by the number two hitter. He scores on a sacrifice fly to left field by the number three hitter. Koufax wins game 1-0. You had to be there.
No.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Koufax doesn't even beat Seaver in Tom's years with the Mets, which is about the same duration
as Sandy's whole career.
Wins- Seaver 198, Koufax 165
ERA- Seaver 2.57, Koufax 2.76
ERA+ Seaver 136, Koufax 131
Complete games Seaver 171, Koufax 137
Shutouts Seaver 44, Koufax 40
So Seaver beats Koufax over about an 11 or 12 year period which is Sandy's whole career,
then Seaver continues on to be a very good pitcher for many more years, sure his stats went
down during his old man years but still a very consistent and reliable pitcher.
I'm not a big fan of proclaiming a pitcher a GOAT because of a single game, but if you're going to do that it should at least be a game that actually happened. The Reds lost two games 1-0 in 1965; one to the Mets and the other to, ironically, Juan Marichal. Marichal's shutout was actually close to what you described: Jesus Alou doubled to start the inning, Tom Haller grounded out, advancing Alou to third, and Jim Davenport hit a sac fly to center, scoring Alou. Great game by Marichal, but I don't think it makes him the GOAT.
Koufax did shut out the Reds once in 1965, but it was 5-0 and Wills scored the fifth run after hitting a triple. Also, it happened at Dodger Stadium, as so many of his shutouts did.
No question Cy Young was the greatest ever with Walter Johnson second. Over 900 wins between them. Amazing to think of it in today’s game. When mentioning records that will never be broken this is at the top of the list.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
This happens every time! Stop leaving him out!!!!
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Sorry if I got it wrong. I was going to Google the whole thing just to make sure but I didn't. I sure thought it happened, but if you say so. I did go out on a limb. Also, I thought maybe Wills stole home! I shouldn't have posted it without checking. Sorry guys.
On July 5, 1966 and on July 6, 1966 the Dodgers beat the Reds in both games 1-0. Maybe it was one of those games and I got the year wrong. I'm checking it out.
On July 5, 1966 the Dodgers did beat the Reds 1-0 and Koufax was the winning pitcher but it didn't happen as I wrote it. Just a youthful fantasy at this point I guess. Ahh.....the bubble has burst. I'm bummed out. I was SURE it was true. I've told the story to people many, many times not in relation to Koufax but to show how Alston managed that weak hitting team so well. I'm going to do some more research. I just remember it happening. What can I say?
Absolutely not the best ever over an entire career and his career was short. Maybe for 3-4 years which is still quite awesome. His home/away splits were interesting too. But those 4 years I believe he was awesome on the road too. Don't have the stats in front of me.
O.K., I give up. But......Deep Thought for the day......what other events do I, or perhaps all of us, remember from when we were kids that either didn't really happen or the interpretation of things were muddled by a child brain and a child's worldview? My takeaway...... maybe Dad wasn't so bad after all. He knew what was best. Food for thought.
It's ok Hydrant, I'm the same way. I remember stuff differently from my childhood as well. I think something happened only to find out it was different from the way I remember it. I'm just happy that I had a childhood with loving parents, unlike today, where I have a adulthood where my wife neglects me by only making brownies for herself like she did last night. She knows I love Betty Crocker homemade brownies, she made two big, juicy, brownies for herself and nothing for me. Try living with someone who brownie neglects you!
Koufax may have been the most dominating for a time in the mid sixties.
However even though I never seen him pitching Walter Johnson was the most dominating ever.
In my time I have to go with the Chairman of the Board, Whitey Ford..
And that weak hitting team traded Frank Howard for Claude Osteen... that really did not make much sense.
But back to the question... No
The rationale is quite simple... There is no GOAT. One can divide MLB into eras and select the top 3-5 from each position for that time.
I am not going to argue Walter Johnson was better than Koufax... it is not an apples to apples comparison. The game was different and it has evolved over time.
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It was cruel, and the smell lingered for hours!
In my view when it comes to pitchers, "most dominating" is a synonym for greatest.
Koufax is therefore the greatest.
Case closed and sealed.
Seriously, If we judge 4-5 years as is the case with Koufax.....how good was Pedro Martinez from 1997-2003 which is 7 years ?? Wasn't Pedro's numbers better. The power hitters in the league were unbelievable at that time. I think Koufax was incredible; but can we seriously say the best of all time with 4-5 years??? Makes no sense to me. If we narrow down the years just about every MVP could be the greatest player of all time.
roger clemens is the greatest pitcher of all time. he had both an amazing peak and amazing durability.
he also pitched the bulk of his career in the AL east in hitters ballparks.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Aside from Clemens, how does Nolan Ryan not get mentioned?
way way way too many walks for Ryan. that's it in a nutshell. all time leader for walks given up
Clemens threw about as hard, but with worlds better command. Clemens was significantly better than Ryan.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If you take Koufax's career then add Pedro Martinez career to it, you basically have Clemens career.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
We all do it - "remember" things that never happened. Which is why anytime you hear anyone say something along the lines of "I don't care what the stats say, I saw it with my own eyes", take it with a grain of salt. And trust the stats.
And the Dodgers were NOT a weak hitting team, they were a good hitting team trapped in Dodger Stadium which made hitters look weak and pitchers look like GOATs. Oakland Coliseum had the same effect on a great hitting team with weak pitching, convincing everyone that the 1970's A's were a weak hitting team with great pitching.
Nolan Ryan pitched for the Angels from 1972-79. If I got it wrong I'm sure someone here will correct me. I attended every Angel game during that time that I possibly could. That's a fact. Google it. Anyway, I wanted Ryan to be good. I wanted to see another Koufax. But.....he wasn't. He didn't come within a country mile. That's just the way it was. Whatever.
Nolan Ryan was the most exciting pitcher ever; there was a very good chance that you would see a no-hitter or a one-hitter, or maybe watch him strike out 16, 17, 18 batters. Or maybe even get to see him bitch-slap Robin Ventura. He is my favorite player ever, and I can't even imagine how anyone could knock him out of that spot.
Problem was, when he wasn't throwing a great game, he was throwing a poor one; the batters that didn't strike out either walked or hit a homer. Overall, he was a great pitcher, but he's a long way from the GOAT conversation. He was a contemporary of Tom Seaver for most of his career, and of the 15-20 seasons that they overlapped, my guess is that Ryan was better than Seaver fewer than 5 times. GOAT candiates from the 1970's - 1980's begin and end with Seaver; nobody else pitching in those decades was even close, not even Blyleven.
You said it and you are exactly right. Great pitchers don't stink the joint out every other game. Don Sutton was a better pitcher than Nolan Ryan.
i.e., Sutton was a pitcher. Ryan was a thrower.
Now I think that takes it a bit too far, but just a bit. Sutton was a great pitcher, but Ryan was better.
Simple question..... Who on this forum ever attended a game that Koufax pitched?
I disagree.