Coin World article on the 1913 LHN letter regarding unused dies
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Are you going to try to get PCGS to re-holder your 1913 Liberty Nickel as SP66?
Also, is it clear that all 4 1913 proof dies destroyed were Buffalo Nickel dies? Or since we now know that 130 1913 Liberty Nickels dies were produced that, along with the "non-proof" finish of the 5 nickels, it is much more likely circulation dies were used?
Also, why do the other 4 nickels range from PR55 to PR64 - were they all cleaned or mishandled? I would think when Samuel Brown first had them, they would all be 65 or better.
I found this is interesting:
If the 1913 Liberty Nickels were struck with circulation strike dies on planchets used for circulation strikes, why would the coins be classified as Specimen and not standard circulation strikes? For a Specimen designation, shouldn't something be special (non-circulation) about the die or planchet?
Worrying about designations for extremely rare and popular coins like the 1913 Liberty nickel is a waste of time and energy. The real story behind them will almost certainly never be known.
You are, of course, Correct.
Pete
I haven't heard of anyone worrying about it and it can make for interesting study and speculation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
True, but only if there is something solid to actually study. Too often this kind of thing results in "stories" that have no real factual basis but sound good and help promote the sale of such items.
I love it that I can waste time and energy with the best of them, John Dannreuther that is!
The great thing is that John Dannreuther and others are able to put together more of the story over time, even over a century later!
I'd love to talk coins with JD someday. I've never met him, but have seen many of his interviews on youtube, he's definitely an interesting guy.
My YouTube Channel
In this case, I think it could be the coins, themselves.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just for Ha Ha's, here is the page from the Denver Mint die register showing eight unused Liberty Nickel dies left over at the end of 1912. There is no mention of when or where they were destroyed.
And here are some notes from the Denver Mint Die Register about 1913 Buffalo Nickel Type One reverse dies returned to the Philadelphia Mint for destruction.
The date on the reverse dies returned to Philadelphia shows May 15.
Presumably those were all Type 1, as Type 2 reverses were used from May 12 onward.
Pete
Yes, that was the point of returning them to Philadelphia.
They're special strikes. How else could Colonel Green obtain them ?
I always assumed his mom (the witch of Wall Street, Hettie Green) had a hand in getting something "special" made for her son. Come on. Where is our collective imagination ?
Huh..... First I have heard of Green being a player in their creation.
I have never heard anything to suggest that Green was involved in their creation in any way.
If these were never issued by the Mint, since they lack any official record, then these should not be considered US coins. Am I correct in this assumption ?
They may have been illegally processed at the Mint, but NOT under Mint direction.
These would be considered fantasy pieces, similar to Dan Carr's creations.
There are NO 1913 Proof Nickels, minted by the US Mint. No more than, there are 1933 Washington Quarters. If they arouse, then they would be considered fantasy pieces.
I would be interested to see Dan Carr, or anyone for that matter, produce 1913 Proof Liberty Nickels.
Then, we could all own something that is NOT a US Mint product.
Just my opinion.
Chris
The various Mint Acts say nothing about documentation being required to demonstrate authenticity. If the official record existed at one time and was later destroyed, would they cease being coins?
There isn't anything that definitively proves one way or another whether these 1913 liberty nickels were made under Mint direction or not. Maybe they made a bunch and decide to melt them soon after but didn't melt 5 of them for one reason or another. Or maybe it was a mint employee that created them himself in secret. No one really knows for sure and we likely will never know. But the mystery is what makes collecting coins so interesting.
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That would not be out of the realm of belief.
Pete
WOW. Can you imagine a 1913 mintmarked Liberty Nickel being found?
It's obvious that the mint was farther along with the preparation for their use than was thought.
Pete
Though it is unlikely the full story will ever be known, it is certainly interesting what diligent research has uncovered already. Perhaps one day, in some strange file, some letter/document/notation will surface, that provides the answer. Keep searching... Cheers, RickO
The Denver Mint had unused reverse dies on hand at the end of 1912. Had the Buffalo design not been adopted these would just have been used up in 1913 as part of normal procedure. However, there is no record of Denver having received any 1913-dated Liberty nickel obverses.