Recent CAC Submission ..... frustrated with the results.
Oney
Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭✭
I feel as if I have a good eye for quality. I really look for eye appeal on my coins and I am pretty solid in my grading. I just am having a hard time with these CAC results. I sent in 7 coins, 2 of which I do not have pictures of currently. A PCGS 1881-CC MS67 which did not get a bean but is a virtually spotless coin and a PCGS 1898-O MS67 which did get a green bean. This coin I threw into the submission as the least likely to get awarded a bean.
Here are the others that did not get a bean. What are your thoughts?
78-CC
79-CC MS63PL
84-CC MS66
85-CC MS66
92-CC MS65
Brian
7
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Comments
My interpretation of their guidelines includes a market aspect. Maybe that has something to do with their decision?
They got my approval!
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I like the 79, 85 and 92 but these are not in hand so take it for what its worth.
That's to bad ... you have some real nice ones.
I feel your pain, JA rejected nearly all my CC's, including my 79-CC in MS63PL which looks remarkably close to yours:
Certainly, I might have different opinions, were I to see the coins in hand. However, where applicable, below are my guesses as to why they might have failed to sticker - I realize that none of these observations are astute.
1878-CC - marks on face look pretty severe - like cuts/digs, not just normal contact marks.
1879-CC - scratch on upper right side of cheek and marks on lower portion of face, jaw and neck
1884-CC - nothing stands out to me.
1885-CC - scratch at upper right side of face and smaller marks scattered marks on face
1892-CC - marks on face and jaw
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What “market aspect” and “guidelines” of theirs are you speaking of?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The only one that I don't understand is the 84-CC, all of the others are very nice but I don't think qualify for being a top tier coin for their grades assigned.
Whatever they said those are very nice Morgans.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
1878-CC - what grade? If 66 cuts are too many and too deep
1879-CC - too hazy for PL?
1884-CC - friction on cheek? A pet peeve for JA
1885-CC - the cheek is just too busy
1892-CC - 3 marks on upper cheek and maybe a bit’ogrease to cover them
Summary- up your pickiness on cheek quality
Not trying to be mean, but...if you want coins with CAC stickers, buy coins that already have CAC stickers. Life's too short for this kind of frustration.
Do not get me wrong, I believe these are nice coins and keepers for my collection. This just reinforces that subjectivity rules in the hobby. I appreciate everyone's opinion and comments. In hand these are stunning pieces.
Mark...
From the CAC website....
They verify grades AND make market in actively traded coins.
Just stating what they say.
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I fully agree with MLC as there's thousands of these CC $1's out there already stickered many without any sort of premium for the bean.
No sticker means right for the grade. It doesn’t mean bad coins. Why does everyone get so thin skinned when it comes to CAC? Those are coins that anyone would be happy to have.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
Thank you. I understand that, but not what it would have to do with this group. My belief is that they would have stickered any of the coins that meet their standards, apart from whether they make a market in them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry for your disappointment, as I have said before TV's are not a good way to judge a coin from. I have the feeling that in hand the marks are more "problematic" than it appears in the TV's. That is not to say these are not nice, just that the TV photos are hiding some issues.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
"Making market" just means they buy and sell CAC coins. It does not mean that market consideration goes into the grade verification.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Whoa! I really love those Morgans! I wouldn't worry too much about a sticker.
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w/o trying to get this thread locked, fwiw, i think that is kind of what part of the point may have been. i would say more but won't for the aforementioned reason.
@oney, the advice given here by a few people is spot-on. if you want another minor piece of advice, try looking up already stickered examples and compare/contrast. i don't know what your in-hand availability of CAC stickered coins is. hope it helps. take the bitter with the better ol boy. i had to do that with my last pcgs order. worst of the bunch i've ever had.
For some reason could not quote directly from their website.
Was just speculation on my part as to why... and always thought there was more than one criteria.
No dog in the CAC debate.
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USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
A few thoughts:
CC Dollars get a little bit of a pass from graders, so there's that.
Coins with lofty grades are already lofty, to get a bump even higher, excellence is expected.
The market maker aspect of their activities has to be a minor factor.
And finally, although I've never done it, I guess you can ask. I understand they take notes (or similar) and will discuss submitted coins they have reviewed.
The 1892-CC also has too much rubbing on the neck and, especially, the cap. I agree with everything else he indicates.
The CC's are actually very common coins. There is no reason to be easy or forgiving when grading them.
The 1884 has linear marks that appear to be from reeding sliding across the cheek. I have had three otherwise great Morgan’s that had that same condition not CAC. I suspect that was the case with this. I do like all the coins regardless of bean absence.
The market maker aspect of their activities doesn't need to be a minor factor. They don't guarantee price. They don't even guarantee to be the higher buyer. They only guarantee to make an offer. JA has even told people that his offer won't be the highest.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Those “linear marks” look mint-made to me and don’t typically impact the grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
84 has subdued luster and a brown tint. They come much nicer.
84-CC has planchet striations on the cheek, and subdued luster / brown tinge suggestive of dip/retone. No dice on a 66.
Agree with the rest of Mark's points.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
It seems like the damage has been done if you like the coins less now because of no sticker. Unfortunately the market most likely thinks the same, whether justified or not. Basing on what I see in the images, none of the coins are slouches at all.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
They are all very nice.
I have had a few over the years that did not bean and I just can't see it. I have have a few bean and I just can't see it. About 80% of the coins I send in that bean or don't, make sense. Different eyes see different things. One opinion, an excellent one from CAC, but if one likes their own coin(s) that is the opinion that matters.
Great looking CC Morgans Oney!
Best, SH
As far as I know, they don’t “guarantee to make an offer”. And that’s not a criticism.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't know if they do it in writing or not, but a couple forum folks have called. JA told them he'd make an offer but he probably wasn't the best person for certain items. That's what i was referring to.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
RE CAC and my opinion of the coins, I have found that I value JA's opinion and I have learned a lot from what stickers, and what doesn't sticker. If I were you, I would get JA on the line and talk to him. He is a very intelligent, sharp guy who is super nice and always willing to take a couple minutes out of his day and talk about your coins. It is best done when he has them in hand.
I disagree with him from time to time... At this point, failure to bean is not grounds for removing a coin from my collection. If something I thought would bean, does not bean, I do look at closer when I get it back and really critique it closer. If I still like it after that, I keep it. If I find something that I presume he did not like, I often will part with it.
About 80% of my collection is CAC at this point. So that 20% is where we disagree, and that is ok! I am not at your level, though, so YMMV.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The 79-CC looks gorgeous for the grade — I agree that one deserves a bean. It’s a bit easier for me to nit pick the others—though they’re still very nice too.
FWIW, I appreciate the OP posting this and allowing feedback. It's not always easy to have your own babies criticized but it is educational and not just for the owner. I found Mark's and TDN's comments quite helpful. I would have guessed the left obverse field was the problem for the 78 and 85 but I know next to nothing about grading Morgans.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Regardless, 0-3 sent to CAC, maybe someone has an image of a CAC Morgan with those marks?
Pretty sure these are the same strip scratches:
Well, welcome to the club. Grades are just opinions. JA’s opinion is quite respected in the business, but coins without beans can be perfectly nice.
If you like the coins, keep enjoying them. If you were thinking of selling them, well, not having a bean makes it harder. Everyone who submits coins to TPGs or CAC is disappointed from time to time.
Sweet Carson’s, saving up to get one myself 👍
He makes lots of offers, but that’s not the same as guaranteeing to make an offer on any CAC coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just remember its a opinion on a opinion!! Don't let it discourage you! On my last CAC try i was 3-11 so i know the frustration so im done with it
Those are very nice CC Morgans. That being said, I would say it is the cheek/face chatter on all of them that affected the decision. JMO. I would like any of them in my collection. Cheers, RickO
Yep, the same. So that alone won’t preclude a bean. Thanks for sharing the pics!
True.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Except a 64 isn't a 67. While it might not preclude a bean in 64, it might in 66 or 67.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Basic question: since the critiques of these coins are citing only contact marks, doesn't it stand to reason that all or most of these coins would sticker if they were just graded one point lower? (I suppose a coin with a designation like PL might fail to sticker at any grade if it isn't really PL and that is what CAC is screening.)
There are many beautiful coins either raw or in tpg holders that cac doesn’t review. While I love cac it isn’t the end all be all.
CAC
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