Was this the proper way to grade a coin or just beyond words?
RelicKING
Posts: 170 ✭✭
So I do not submit coins often but recently submitted a coin I had higher expectations for. (As did other Dealers and people who have examined the coin before)
Long story short I get an email asking for me to lower my valuation of insurance on the item since it was graded Uncirculated Details - Reverse Scratched. They also included high resolution images of my coin, now heres the funny part... My coin is still in the original 2x2 flip it was mailed in!! How can you finalize a grade without examining the coin? I feel like this is pretty bad thing to be doing to people? Yes this was a NGC submission for anyone wondering and also a 150$ Walkthrough submission.
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I mean, if they can see the scratch while in the holder, why take it out?
do you see the scratch/s when its not in a 2x2?
Take it up with NGC. I don’t see any scratches that would detail it, but I am looking at a photo and they are looking at the coin.
Yes, looks like several of them in the field under UNITED
And my guess is they took it out of the flip to grade, put it back in for pictures
lol you dont take a coin out of a 2x2 to grade it then put it back in the same 2x2 to take pictures then to take it back out of 2x2 to encapsulate it. its a stapled paper 2x2 flip.
nothing i can do really short of being unhappy with the experience. they had this assigned a finalized grade before they even graded it. i have the email to prove it but yeah its just a bad experience.
Did your submission include any conditions (such as minimum or straight grade) for holdering of the coin?
And what insured value had you placed on it? Anything over about $700 would seem quite high to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Can we see their photos?
No special conditions, It doesn't allow you to set a minimum grade on it with walkthrough, or give me the option rather. I did insure it high incase it did grade out.
This is pretty much how it happened for my on my end.
1. I call to ask why the coin wasn't in walkthrough tier for over a day, just showed received.
2. They informed me I needed to speak with the Shipping supervisor about reevaluating the coin.
3. I speak with the lady who informed me she showed it to her boss (a finalizer) and he graded it unc details - rev scratched so i asked for details on the scratch and she then took the coin to be photographed and emailed me photos of my coin still in the paper 2x2 flip with original staples with a finalized graded in hand. (they suggested i leave it in the paper flip for submitting it else I use better ones normally.)
4. I start asking about why it was finalized or how it could be finalized without being actually examined as I was paying for and she backtracked some saying they would examine it during the process but it wouldnt change the outcome. (which it didnt)
5. https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/5944722-001/60/
yeah i was about to do that also. ill post them below.
@MFeld Also meant to mention this all happened today in the period of 2-2 1/2 hours time this morning. (if that info matters or helps no idea lol)
ATS's method makes sense to me. Before removing from holder, look for obvious damage. Limits liability. The grader saw the obvious scratches and didn't proceed any further because he or she did not need to do so. They were even gracious enough to try to save you some bucks on return shipping. I don't see where the bad experience is, except in the disappointment of a details grade.
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There are numerous scratches on the reverse. I would have likely insured this item for $600 (Even though I don't think it's worth quite that much) I even inverted the color to make the scratches more easily visible.
Even if it were not scratched, I think at best it would be a 62 worth 6-700 bucks. Sorry it didn't work out! If you ever plan on submitting again may be a good idea to ask here first for opinions.
I'll ask again - how much did you insure it for? If they thought the amount was unrealistically high and with the coin in a stapled flip (which I don't think is the proper way to submit a coin for grading), I could understand leaving it as it was.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
im not even upset about the grade its a 500+ coin in this grade. theres a process a coin goes through when grading and they cut every corner i feel with mine.
i can say though if this is a details coin, every single coin ive ever seen graded needs a recheck though. but thats my non professional opinion.
we adjusted the insurance down before they graded it but after she already had it finalized while still in the flip. i think value was $300 insurance wise. again i was informed by ngc to submit this particular one as is so i did. like i said i asked for them to let the coin be properly examined and she stated it wouldnt make a difference the president/finalizer was the one who examined the coin so what he said was what would happen. my submission status went from recieved to finalized and shipped within 30 minutes of that call also.
i agree on the grade. ms62-63 that seems reasonable. i just think these are more bag marks / coin contacts since they are very superficial under magnification and if you compare it to any ms60 ngc morgan ive ever seen with deeper contact marks and impressions and still getting ms grades is beyond me.
The NGC Certification photos truly show the scratches and it is a shame. Such a beautiful coin to be damaged by the scratches. Thanks for sharing. Sorry for the bad taste in your mouth with NGC. Hopefully, it will not destroy your faith in the tpg's. Best of luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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Thank you. Based on what you've posted, I don't understand why the coin wasn't placed in a details grade holder. Did you ask them why it wasn't encapsulated? If not, I recommend that you do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Did the gloves scratch it?
lol i suppose so.
anyways heres the final results from them. (atleast until it gets here and cracked back out.)
guess i should be happy they included the images since i didnt pay or ask for them.
i'm almost certain they provide full-slab shots for a variety of good reasons.
they might take them but they make you pay to have them displayed like they have it. pcgs does this too.
It should have at least been taking out of the 2x2 for inspection.
I thought from your previous posts that they hadn't encapsulated the coin. I have no reason to believe that they didn't examine it properly before making their decision. And for quality control purposes, coins are re-examined after being slabbed. Sorry, but I get the impression that you've made a big deal out of a very small one (or nothing at all).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
that was my argument but the response to that was "it wont change the grade, i had a finalizer look at it already and they assigned it the grade and they also happen to be the president of the company". this coins fate was already determined lol.
@MFeld they encapsulated it afterwards when i instructed them to give me what i was paying for. it was graded in the 2x2 flip it was in and finalized in that state. the email from the lady @ ngc even states that. this all transpired over a 2 hour period this morning.
Well either they screwed up or something was lost in translation between what they did and what you heard/reported here. It doesn't make sense that a details coin wouldn't be holdered, which means taking it out of the flip, and indeed, it's now in a holder. Is there any chance that photo in your cardboard 2x2 was taken when the coin was received (proof of what they received) and they just passed it along, and in fact the coin wasn't in that holder when it was being graded?
As an aside, they make it pretty clear to not submit coins in this manner:
@airplanenut
no chance of that the photos and email came from my request to see the scratches in which she had to specifically take the coin to the photographer for the high res images above. it only became slabbed afterwards at my direction. i was being charged whether they slabbed it or not i chose to have it protected long enough to crack it back out when it arrives. this was absolutely given the grade it received before it even went to the front end as she described it to be graded then finalized. she stated the finalizer looked at it first and determined its grade and that grade would not change whether they examine it or not. all this is happening within a 2 hour period (really about an 1 1/2 but 2 is easier to type out.)
oh and yes i know coins are supposed to be submitted in clear flips. submitting this coin like i did was at NGC's direction. They felt at the time leaving it as is would be in the best interest. if it helps the paper flip was in a clear flip?
but anyways guys we all have our opinions of this and how it works and what not i get that. this is just solely my experience with them today and i felt the need to share it.
to be clear i do not feel it was correct to finalize a coin without examining it outside of a old cardboard 2x2 experience or not. else it really ruins the experience and purpose of what this is supposed to be about and most importantly its well short of the service i paid for. my opinions.
It is called Tuition!
I see scratches... not sure there is room to complain.
Humbly and stupidly admit to doing something similar in my last submission.
Set aside several coins for grading and divided them into batches to go out monthly.
Enamored with the color, I never gave it a second glance, and sent in the batch.
OOOPS... there it is!
Bet you (and I) will closely inspect our subs in the future.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Yes, clear and easy to spot. On the left just below the ribbon and left of wing.. x's
bob
@yspsales i bet they atleast took the coin out of the holder to inspect it though lol. (or that was my expectations until today atleast)
my coin skipped all the traditional methods. to my knowledge a coin being submitted goes like this.
1. sent
2. received
3. inventoried or input into the system
4. sent to front office to be examined by graders
5. coin is assigned a grade and photographed and submitted to finalizer
6. finalizer deems given grade a thumbs up or adjusts the grade and encapsulates the coin.
7. mailed back
they did not give me the courtesy of reducing the tier which was the 150$ walkthrough only the option to reduce return shipping insurance.
and though i do not agree on the scratches i dont mind it. the grade i had figured wasnt much higher especially value wise.
i will provide high resolution high magnification of these 'scratches' when its back in hand mostly just to point out its nothing near as bad or worse than an impossible number of other coins graded higher by tpg's already but thats besides the point here. grading is subjective yes, am i biased because im the owner? yes again. but no one has been able to justify to me how it was proper to finalize a grade on a coin before it even went through the proper process just because of who it was grading it.
do you purchase coins without inspecting them first? are you so skilled at determining a value that a coin thats been in a flip for a period of time just couldnt have imperfections in the plastic lining itself? that its not a bag mark or coin strike compared to someone or something foreign striking the coin causing the scratches? all that with the naked eye? i think its more a case theres more going on behind the scenes of these places and we as consumers might just not be getting what is advertised.
again this is just my post on my experience with NGC. plus side is i have to put faith in PCGS now until atleast I realize unless its just to authenticate a heavily counterfeited coin grading with these places just arent worth it anymore period.
what about this one?
Just wanted to point out- a stapled cardboard 2X2 holder is not a flip.
i could point out you havent read anything posted also. NUMEROUS times i stated why it was submitted like it was and numerous times its pretty clear i understand the difference in the two. I can also point out that has nothing to do with anything posted here.
However I truly appreciate you being on the lookout for all things obvious.
You could. And you'd be wrong. Sensing a trend here...
Just as I'm sensing (or maybe smelling) a troll I suppose. Again I appreciate your valuable input and its welcome anytime!
The one thing that is clear is that you sent in a damaged scratched coin and now you are upset that it was graded in a manor that you find unsatisfactory even tho its is graded correctly. Also this entire post is in violation of rule #2
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
let the mods decide that then if i cant post my bad experiences to try to understand them then they can remove it. as for the grade i care less i dont have to agree with that and i dont. my opinion. am i wrong? maybe i admit to that. do i agree with how it was done? absolutely no. sounds like you work for them or something.
I can't see any issue that would keep this from straight grading....obverse only of course.
bob
Your posts have been confusing and don’t make sense.
You wrote “They also included high resolution images of my coin, now heres the funny part... My coin is still in the original 2x2 flip it was mailed in!!”
You posted the above, without mentioning that the coin had later been encapsulated.
You wrote “ they had this assigned a finalized grade before they even graded it”.
Finalizing a coin is part of the grading process. So they couldn’t have finalized it before they graded it.
You wrote “ she then took the coin to be photographed and emailed me photos of my coin still in the paper 2x2 flip with original staples with a finalized graded in hand. (they suggested i leave it in the paper flip for submitting it else I use better ones normally.”
That means you submitted it with staples in a 2x2. Why?
You wrote “i can say though if this is a details coin, every single coin ive ever seen graded needs a recheck though. but thats my non professional opinion.
Considering that the coin looks as if it might have deserved a details grade, clearly, your opinion was a non professional one.
You wrote “ again i was informed by ngc to submit this particular one as is so i did.”
What does that mean? I don’t believe they’d tell you to submit it in a stapled 2x2 under normal circumstances.
You wrote “all this is happening within a 2 hour period (really about an 1 1/2 but 2 is easier to type out.”
You mentioned 2 hours multiple times, as if that’s something important or out of the ordinary. It’s not.
You wrote “and yes i know coins are supposed to be submitted in clear flips. submitting this coin like i did was at NGC's direction. They felt at the time leaving it as is would be in the best interest”
Why did they direct you to submit the coin in a stapled 2x2? I don’t believe they would direct you to to that without a very good reason, if at all.
And now you’ve gone and insulted a couple of posters.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From all your posts it does not surprise me that you are not able to take responsibility for your actions, you sent in a damaged coin and asked for it to be graded and slabbed, NGC did just what you paid them to do. Your petty lashing out at everyone that does not see it your way and posting a photo of a perfectly fine Morgan to supposedly prove your absurd point only continues to show your grading skills are lacking, now would you like some cheese with your whine?
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
@coinbuf from all my posts of me repeating i dont care about the grade my issue isnt about the grade? if you mean that then uh okay? this comes from you bringing up the grade repeatedly i have to repeat myself repeatedly.
and while we are looking at posts i can see from yours and how you only buy ngc graded coins i can see why you are here defending your pride and joy. i simply had a bad experience and do not agree with a coin being given a final grade before it even starts the process of how a coin typically is supposed to be graded. so if i lash out at you and its bothering you maybe a: go away and go enjoy your day or b: go away. and actually the morgan photo is of a details obverse coin so if thats not a great example of grading is subjective with you saying a clean coin then that drills my point down.