Who is the GOAT of baseball?

doubledragon

Interested in hearing opinions on who is the GOAT of baseball.

thisistheshow

perkdog

If I had to chose 1 player it would be Willie Mays

doubledragon

I'll go with Babe Ruth.

VikingDude

End of story. Good luck finding anyone else that could hit and pitch at that level.

coolstanley

Barry Bonds

Look up all the hitting records he holds.

Hydrant

@perkdog said:
If I had to chose 1 player it would be Willie Mays

Willie Mays was very good. My favorite during his playing days. There is a book titled " The Glory of Their Times." It is a classic. The best book about baseball ever written in my opinion. The book consists of interviews with baseball players who played during the time period roughly 1890's-1920's. It was written in 1965 I think. Willie Mays is mentioned by a few of the oldtimers as the best that they had ever seen play the game. But.......I got the feeling reading the book that perhaps Ty Cobb would have been the first choice of MOST of the people interviewed but they so disliked him on a personal level that they would not credit him as the best. So, just going by what players who were there and best able to judge had to say, I go with either Mays or Cobb. At least for the period between 1900-1965. After that, I don't know. I have no opinion.

craig44

oh man. this is a toughie.

I think you have to go with Ruth overall. one of the 2 greatest offensive forces ever and a dominant pitcher.

Hitter, I would go with either Ruth or Bonds.

Pitcher, I would probably go with Clemens

tough to get a definitive answer because of so many eras in baseball history

doubledragon

@Hydrant said:

@perkdog said:
If I had to chose 1 player it would be Willie Mays

Willie Mays was very good. My favorite during his playing days. There is a book titled " The Glory of Their Times." It is a classic. The best book about baseball ever written in my opinion. The book consists of interviews with baseball players who played during the time period roughly 1890's-1920's. It was written in 1965 I think. Willie Mays is mentioned by a few of the oldtimers as the best that they had ever seen play the game. But.......I got the feeling reading the book that perhaps Ty Cobb would have been the first choice of MOST of the people interviewed but they so disliked him on a personal level that they would not credit him as the best. So, just going by what players who were there and best able to judge had to say, I go with either Mays or Cobb. At least for the period between 1900-1965. After that, I don't know. I have no opinion.

There was a movie called "Cobb" starring Tommy Lee Jones made and I haven't seen it yet, but I heard it showed a lot about how crazy and mean Ty Cobb really was. I read a story about the guy that wrote Ty Cobb's autobiography, and the guy spent a lot of time with Cobb, and he said Cobb was crazy as hell, he pulled guns on people, went to war with the power company over their fees, and rather than pay the power company, he chose to sit in the dark with no heat and they nearly froze, and he was always drunk and had a vicious temper.

doubledragon

Al Stump was the name of the guy that spent time with Ty Cobb when they collaborated on Cobb's book. Al Stump wrote a book about his time with Cobb and how mean and crazy he was.

doubledragon

I always heard that Ty Cobb used to purposely spike players with his cleats.

stevek

@doubledragon said:
I'll go with Babe Ruth.

That's of course the correct answer.

The debate should be for second, in which i would choose Ted Williams.

Arguably Mays, Bonds, or perhaps a few others could be a correct choice for third.

doubledragon

@stevek said:

@doubledragon said:
I'll go with Babe Ruth.

That's of course the correct answer.

The debate should be for second, in which i would choose Ted Williams.

Arguably Mays, Bonds, or perhaps a few others could be a correct choice for third.

stevek

@doubledragon said:

@Hydrant said:

@perkdog said:
If I had to chose 1 player it would be Willie Mays

Willie Mays was very good. My favorite during his playing days. There is a book titled " The Glory of Their Times." It is a classic. The best book about baseball ever written in my opinion. The book consists of interviews with baseball players who played during the time period roughly 1890's-1920's. It was written in 1965 I think. Willie Mays is mentioned by a few of the oldtimers as the best that they had ever seen play the game. But.......I got the feeling reading the book that perhaps Ty Cobb would have been the first choice of MOST of the people interviewed but they so disliked him on a personal level that they would not credit him as the best. So, just going by what players who were there and best able to judge had to say, I go with either Mays or Cobb. At least for the period between 1900-1965. After that, I don't know. I have no opinion.

There was a movie called "Cobb" starring Tommy Lee Jones made and I haven't seen it yet, but I heard it showed a lot about how crazy and mean Ty Cobb really was. I read a story about the guy that wrote Ty Cobb's autobiography, and the guy spent a lot of time with Cobb, and he said Cobb was crazy as hell, he pulled guns on people, went to war with the power company over their fees, and rather than pay the power company, he chose to sit in the dark with no heat and they nearly froze, and he was always drunk and had a vicious temper.

I saw the movie. While i could nit-pick certain aspects of the screenplay, in one scene where Cobb is at bat, illustrating the beauty of Cobb hitting a baseball and running the base paths, the movie is worth seeing for that one scene alone.

doubledragon

@stevek said:

@doubledragon said:

@Hydrant said:

@perkdog said:
If I had to chose 1 player it would be Willie Mays

Willie Mays was very good. My favorite during his playing days. There is a book titled " The Glory of Their Times." It is a classic. The best book about baseball ever written in my opinion. The book consists of interviews with baseball players who played during the time period roughly 1890's-1920's. It was written in 1965 I think. Willie Mays is mentioned by a few of the oldtimers as the best that they had ever seen play the game. But.......I got the feeling reading the book that perhaps Ty Cobb would have been the first choice of MOST of the people interviewed but they so disliked him on a personal level that they would not credit him as the best. So, just going by what players who were there and best able to judge had to say, I go with either Mays or Cobb. At least for the period between 1900-1965. After that, I don't know. I have no opinion.

There was a movie called "Cobb" starring Tommy Lee Jones made and I haven't seen it yet, but I heard it showed a lot about how crazy and mean Ty Cobb really was. I read a story about the guy that wrote Ty Cobb's autobiography, and the guy spent a lot of time with Cobb, and he said Cobb was crazy as hell, he pulled guns on people, went to war with the power company over their fees, and rather than pay the power company, he chose to sit in the dark with no heat and they nearly froze, and he was always drunk and had a vicious temper.

I saw the movie. While i could nit-pick certain aspects of the screenplay, in one scene where Cobb is at bat, illustrating the beauty of Cobb hitting a baseball and running the base paths, the movie is worth seeing for that one scene alone.

I'm definitely going to watch this movie soon, I've heard a lot about it. Heck, my wife has even seen it and she doesn't know anything about sports. She doesn't like football Steve, can you imagine living with someone who doesn't like football? I don't wish this kind of pain on anyone!

Justacommeman

mark

LandrysFedora

Lou Gehrig

craig44

@doubledragon said:

@stevek said:

@doubledragon said:

@Hydrant said:

@perkdog said:
If I had to chose 1 player it would be Willie Mays

Willie Mays was very good. My favorite during his playing days. There is a book titled " The Glory of Their Times." It is a classic. The best book about baseball ever written in my opinion. The book consists of interviews with baseball players who played during the time period roughly 1890's-1920's. It was written in 1965 I think. Willie Mays is mentioned by a few of the oldtimers as the best that they had ever seen play the game. But.......I got the feeling reading the book that perhaps Ty Cobb would have been the first choice of MOST of the people interviewed but they so disliked him on a personal level that they would not credit him as the best. So, just going by what players who were there and best able to judge had to say, I go with either Mays or Cobb. At least for the period between 1900-1965. After that, I don't know. I have no opinion.

There was a movie called "Cobb" starring Tommy Lee Jones made and I haven't seen it yet, but I heard it showed a lot about how crazy and mean Ty Cobb really was. I read a story about the guy that wrote Ty Cobb's autobiography, and the guy spent a lot of time with Cobb, and he said Cobb was crazy as hell, he pulled guns on people, went to war with the power company over their fees, and rather than pay the power company, he chose to sit in the dark with no heat and they nearly froze, and he was always drunk and had a vicious temper.

I saw the movie. While i could nit-pick certain aspects of the screenplay, in one scene where Cobb is at bat, illustrating the beauty of Cobb hitting a baseball and running the base paths, the movie is worth seeing for that one scene alone.

I'm definitely going to watch this movie soon, I've heard a lot about it. Heck, my wife has even seen it and she doesn't know anything about sports. She doesn't like football Steve, can you imagine living with someone who doesn't like football? I don't wish this kind of pain on anyone!

If I remember correctly, the pitcher for that sequence was none other than Roger Clemens

doubledragon

@craig44 said:

@doubledragon said:

@stevek said:

@doubledragon said:

@Hydrant said:

@perkdog said:
If I had to chose 1 player it would be Willie Mays

Willie Mays was very good. My favorite during his playing days. There is a book titled " The Glory of Their Times." It is a classic. The best book about baseball ever written in my opinion. The book consists of interviews with baseball players who played during the time period roughly 1890's-1920's. It was written in 1965 I think. Willie Mays is mentioned by a few of the oldtimers as the best that they had ever seen play the game. But.......I got the feeling reading the book that perhaps Ty Cobb would have been the first choice of MOST of the people interviewed but they so disliked him on a personal level that they would not credit him as the best. So, just going by what players who were there and best able to judge had to say, I go with either Mays or Cobb. At least for the period between 1900-1965. After that, I don't know. I have no opinion.

There was a movie called "Cobb" starring Tommy Lee Jones made and I haven't seen it yet, but I heard it showed a lot about how crazy and mean Ty Cobb really was. I read a story about the guy that wrote Ty Cobb's autobiography, and the guy spent a lot of time with Cobb, and he said Cobb was crazy as hell, he pulled guns on people, went to war with the power company over their fees, and rather than pay the power company, he chose to sit in the dark with no heat and they nearly froze, and he was always drunk and had a vicious temper.

I saw the movie. While i could nit-pick certain aspects of the screenplay, in one scene where Cobb is at bat, illustrating the beauty of Cobb hitting a baseball and running the base paths, the movie is worth seeing for that one scene alone.

I'm definitely going to watch this movie soon, I've heard a lot about it. Heck, my wife has even seen it and she doesn't know anything about sports. She doesn't like football Steve, can you imagine living with someone who doesn't like football? I don't wish this kind of pain on anyone!

If I remember correctly, the pitcher for that sequence was none other than Roger Clemens

Yes, you are correct, I found this picture of Tommy Lee Jones and Roger Clemens. Oh, I have to see this movie!

craig44

I have heard from another forum that the stump biography is not an accurate portrayal of cobbs character. a more modern treatise on cobb is the book "a terrible beauty."

doubledragon

@craig44 said:
I have heard from another forum that the stump biography is not an accurate portrayal of cobbs character. a more modern treatise on cobb is the book "a terrible beauty."

Yes, I will have to look into this, I love a good sports biography.🖒

emar

Howdy.
AL stump unfairly painted Cobb as a racist lunatic. His biography was taken as gospel for decades.
Charles Leerhsen set out to seek the truth; neither to prove nor disprove stump's accounts of cobb.
Leerhsen said. "He (stump) said he spent months with Cobb, when, in reality, it was only a few days.

"Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty," is changing old assumptions and painting a picture of Cobb that -- get this -- actually makes him appear to be a human being.

A flawed human being. A human being whose life did, indeed, come with its fair share of tussles and tumult. But a human being who was not the racist lunatic so many baseball fans assume him to be.

A highly recommended read
A new respect for, in my humble opinion, the greatest hitter ever to swing a bat

Tabe

Stump was a fraud. He lied about Cobb multiple times and then created (and sold) fake Cobb memorabilia. In "War on the Basepaths", Tim Hornbaker destroys a ton of the myths. Great book.

Tabe

However he got there, nobody has ever played baseball as well as Barry Bonds. Nobody.

Mickey71

If your hat size grows to that of a large watermelon, you are not in the conversation. Bonds was a cheater to the highest degree. Very advanced cycles of steroids....etc. Trainers around him took the 5th so many times it's just not even bad...it's silly. I know, he wasn't convicted by judge judy. We will just accept that his numbers went through the roof at age 36+ and he was as big as Goldberg. Ridiculous. He was a HOF and then just got horribly greedy. Sad actually.

coolstanley

@Mickey71 said:
If your hat size grows to that of a large watermelon, you are not in the conversation. Bonds was a cheater to the highest degree. Very advanced cycles of steroids....etc. Trainers around him took the 5th so many times it's just not even bad...it's silly. I know, he wasn't convicted by judge judy. We will just accept that his numbers went through the roof at age 36+ and he was as big as Goldberg. Ridiculous. He was a HOF and then just got horribly greedy. Sad actually.

Baseball (commish, execs, managers, reporters) knew guys were using and didn't do anything about it.

It was the era.

Most of the league was doing it and he made them all look like little leaguer's.

LandrysFedora

@Tabe said:
However he got there, nobody has ever played baseball as well as Barry Bonds. Nobody.

He had in my opinion, without a doubt, the best hand eye coordination of any player I have witnessed playing the game. Too bad the cloud of juicing surrounds him. I believe he would have been a sure lock first ballot hof'er.

dallasactuary

@LandrysFedora said:
He had in my opinion, without a doubt, the best hand eye coordination of any player I have witnessed playing the game. Too bad the cloud of juicing surrounds him. I believe he would have been a sure lock first ballot hof'er.

He was a lock for the HOF before he started cheating. But it was steroids, and only steroids, that got his name into a GOAT conversation. Had he played out his career as a human being he would surely have ended his career as one of the top 20 players of all time, probably top 10, and conceivably top 5. But his decision to play out his career as Tater Head, King of the Mutants, shut the door on the GOAT status of Barry Bonds, and left him far short and out of the conversation.

thisistheshow

@dallasactuary said:

@LandrysFedora said:
He had in my opinion, without a doubt, the best hand eye coordination of any player I have witnessed playing the game. Too bad the cloud of juicing surrounds him. I believe he would have been a sure lock first ballot hof'er.

He was a lock for the HOF before he started cheating. But it was steroids, and only steroids, that got his name into a GOAT conversation. Had he played out his career as a human being he would surely have ended his career as one of the top 20 players of all time, probably top 10, and conceivably top 5. But his decision to play out his career as Tater Head, King of the Mutants, shut the door on the GOAT status of Barry Bonds, and left him far short and out of the conversation.

I think this is well said and helps confirm my thoughts as well.

Justacommeman

@thisistheshow said:

@dallasactuary said:

@LandrysFedora said:
He had in my opinion, without a doubt, the best hand eye coordination of any player I have witnessed playing the game. Too bad the cloud of juicing surrounds him. I believe he would have been a sure lock first ballot hof'er.

He was a lock for the HOF before he started cheating. But it was steroids, and only steroids, that got his name into a GOAT conversation. Had he played out his career as a human being he would surely have ended his career as one of the top 20 players of all time, probably top 10, and conceivably top 5. But his decision to play out his career as Tater Head, King of the Mutants, shut the door on the GOAT status of Barry Bonds, and left him far short and out of the conversation.

I think this is well said and helps confirm my thoughts as well.

+2

Everyone knows rewarding cheating and lying is wrong. But when it's done by someone you like or follow or fits ones narrative it's ok. Turning a blind eye seems to be the path we are on. Doing it because everyone else is.......is well, weak.

Bonds was literally the "Head" of why I stopped following the game.

doubledragon

Jason Giambi lost my support when it was revealed that he wears golden thongs!

perkdog

Very nice thread and input. My answer is still Willie Mays 👍👍

Goldenage

Rick Monday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbr1hNp-nI4

doubledragon

@Goldenage said:
Rick Monday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbr1hNp-nI4

Rick Monday is a god.

Justacommeman

That's pretty dang cool
m

TheGoonies1985

Babe Ruth

BillJones

@stevek said:

@doubledragon said:
I'll go with Babe Ruth.

That's of course the correct answer.

The debate should be for second, in which i would choose Ted Williams.

Arguably Mays, Bonds, or perhaps a few others could be a correct choice for third.

As a hitter, Williams would certainly be #2. He hit 521 home runs and had a lifetime batting average of .344. One also should recall that he lost about five seasons in his prime to military service. Had he been able to play, his home run total would have been close to 700.

Everyone remembers that he was the last player to hit .400 in a season. He came close to doing it again in 1957 at 39 years of age.

He wasn’t always the nicest player around, but some of the Boston sportswriters were real jerks. How could you leave off a highly deserving player from your home town completely in the MVP voting? One of them did it.

coolstanley

@BillJones said:

@stevek said:

@doubledragon said:
I'll go with Babe Ruth.

That's of course the correct answer.

The debate should be for second, in which i would choose Ted Williams.

Arguably Mays, Bonds, or perhaps a few others could be a correct choice for third.

As a hitter, Williams would certainly be #2. He hit 521 home runs and had a lifetime batting average of .344. One also should recall that he lost about five seasons in his prime to military service. Had he been able to play, his home run total would have been close to 700.

Everyone remembers that he was the last player to hit .400 in a season. He came close to doing it again in 1957 at 39 years of age.

Playing in Fenway(a hitters park) didn't hurt either.

BillJones

@coolstanley said:

@BillJones said:

@stevek said:

@doubledragon said:
I'll go with Babe Ruth.

That's of course the correct answer.

The debate should be for second, in which i would choose Ted Williams.

Arguably Mays, Bonds, or perhaps a few others could be a correct choice for third.

As a hitter, Williams would certainly be #2. He hit 521 home runs and had a lifetime batting average of .344. One also should recall that he lost about five seasons in his prime to military service. Had he been able to play, his home run total would have been close to 700.

Everyone remembers that he was the last player to hit .400 in a season. He came close to doing it again in 1957 at 39 years of age.

Playing in Fenway(a hitters park) didn't hurt either

It’s not a hitter’s park for left handed home run hitters. The “Williams porch” made it fairer, but not by much.

Tabe

@BillJones said:
Everyone remembers that he was the last player to hit .400 in a season. He came close to doing it again in 1957 at 39 years of age.

Ted Williams:

• Won 2 MVPs
• Won 2 Triple Crowns
• Batted .406 in a season
• Batted .388 in a season
• Won 2 other batting titles besides the above 4

ALL OF THE ABOVE OCCURRED IN SEPARATE SEASONS.

dallasactuary

@BillJones said:
It’s not a hitter’s park for left handed home run hitters. The “Williams porch” made it fairer, but not by much.

Fenway is a hitter's park for everyone. Williams did hit 10% more HR on the road, but he hit more of everything else at home, including a whopping 50% more doubles. His BA at home was .361 vs. .328 on the road.

JoeBanzai

@dallasactuary said:

@BillJones said:
It’s not a hitter’s park for left handed home run hitters. The “Williams porch” made it fairer, but not by much.

Fenway is a hitter's park for everyone. Williams did hit 10% more HR on the road, but he hit more of everything else at home, including a whopping 50% more doubles. His BA at home was .361 vs. .328 on the road.

Williams said Fenway was not an easy park to hit in for lefties.

He also commented on the speculation about a Williams/DiMaggio trade that was talked about at the time and said he would "never get a good pitch to hit" if he played in Yankee Stadium. Ted went on to say he would have liked to play in Detroit or Cleveland or even Washington. He was better able to see the ball at Detroit and Cleveland because of a good "batters eye" background in Center field. On Washington (a huge park in those days) he said he always felt he was "hitting downhill".

One of the problems with using stats that lump everyone together is that pitchers don't pitch the same way to all batters.

Example; Ted asked one of his team mates one day what pitch he was going to look for in his next at bat. "Fastballs I guess"
was the reply (Johnny Pesky I think) "Bull$hit, look for the slider" Ted commanded. A three pitch strikeout (all fastballs) came next and Pesky came back to the dugout saying "I don't get sliders from this guy, he saves that pitch for you."

Tabe

He definitely liked Detroit. 1.144 OPS there with 55 homers in 162 starts (169 total games). "Only" a .330 average though

thisistheshow

However you slice it, the guy could hit.

dallasactuary

@JoeBanzai said:
Williams said Fenway was not an easy park to hit in for lefties.

Ted was wrong. It's a very easy park for righties and only easy for lefties, but it's an easy (at least) park for everyone.

JoeBanzai

Ted was never wrong about hitting.